[drck1000]

What distances/ranges do you envision you using your AR? Just trying to start some discussion that is more geared toward civilians, but I think most of the tactics into/input would come from mil/LEO.

I was chatting with an Army Infantryman recently about weapons and how the squad/unit make up is of course dependent upon mission, but also upon recognition of the fields of fire for each weapon. It got me thinking on the typical distances for each weapon, particularly for the M4. It is my understanding that it is a 200 yard weapon. Sure, it can probably be effective and capable beyond that with the proper ammunition, but that 5-200 yards is where the M4 shines.

So that got me thinking about how I see myself using my ARs. I live in an urban environment. Of course if something went down in my home, it would be in close quarters. But beyond that, I started thinking about distances in which I would use my AR outside CQB distances. At anything over 200 yards, I could probably hit a man sized target pretty consistently with an unmagnified RDS (if they were nice enough to stay still), but I probably wouldn't be able to positively identify him until they got much closer. Probably something like between 30-100 yards. So I would think that 30-100 yards would be a good range to spend more of my time training and then lesser from 100-200 yards.

Then I started thinking about optics on my AR. Right now I only have RDS without any magnification. I've been thinking about a 1-4x optic. I would think that would increase the distance in which I can identify/evaluate a subject, probably out to about 300-400 yards. How far do you feel that a 1-4x optic would extend the effective range of YOUR M4?

Anyways, just some thoughts running through my mind. Yeah, there are occasions when I have quite a bit of free time so ponder such things. Haha.

[redbarron06]

More than distance is involved in target ID. You also have to consider terrain, weather, movement, concealment and many other items. In the past with the military you could determine threats by clothing, German uniforms vs British uniforms. No so much on today's battlefield. We are fighting side by side with Romaneians who also carry AKs, our troops have been known to carry AKs in a pinch, and the bad guys dnt always wear uniforms. Even with a good 4x optic like an ACOG facial reconnigition is going to be tough after about 250-300 meters. In the right terrain, even knowing they are there at 200 meters might be almost impossibile.

When I'm training I like to practice with a RDS out to 200 meters and my ACOG past that. Most of my training with the RDS is 100 and in. A RDS is designed for fast acquisition and quick follow up shots. The closer they get the more important this becomes. I don't want to give a hostile at 25 meters time to bleed out. At that range I want I'm out of the fight now and that may require several shots for the desired effect. At 300 meters I have a bit more time before they become an immediate threat and I can take that time for more aimed percision shots or I can pin them down under cover, allowing for me or team mates to maneuver for advantage without him knowing I'm coming. I also tend to do alot of 5-15 yard drills with my AR. As it is the weapon of choice for my HD gun, again I don't have time when somebody is at the end of the hallway leading to my child's bedroom to bleed out. I need them to STOP right there. I only have 5 yards to get them out of the fight be it them retreating or them going down. A person can easily cover 5 yards in less than a second if they are determined.

[drck1000]

Thanks red! That is exactly the kind of feedback/information I was looking for. Real life experience in mil/LEO and also applied to personal/private situations in a civilian context. I am sure I could find more formal information on tactics and such online and in books, like David Bellavia's book, but I'd like to also be able to bounce other questions off of people and their point of view.

I just with we could get more discussion on tactics and training going in here as it is of great interest to me. Things like once you've made contact and are falling back, when do you consider that contact broken/ended? When the threat has passed/ended? Ok, what does that mean? Once they've stopped shooting at you? Once you've gotten enough separation from them? What separation is that? 600 yards, 1000 yards? I understand that there are judgement calls along the way and those calls would be VERY scenario dependent, but just some things that run through my mind.

Like going back to training distances and effective range of the AR. I would think that while I could probably hit a man sized target at 300 yards given the right conditions, but at 300 yards I would be probably be far enough away from them that I would choose to evade. Of course that is assuming strictly defensive situations and that I/we are not defending a home or stronghold. So then the AR would be my, get away from them by more than 300 yard weapon, similar to how people often refer to a pistol as a fight your way to your carbine weapon.

Just playing out scenarios in my mind and trying to relate that to my range or training sessions. Taking slow, deliberate shots with controlled breathing is of course good marksmanship practice, but I don't really see that as practical for self-defense. Maybe that's why USPSA events interest me so as it is to some extend practical. Even though some of the stages are quite a stretch from realistic.

Thanks again! If you or anyone else has any ideas for stirring up more discussion on training and tactics, please give it a try.

[Retcop]

If you are talking about using the rifle as a defensive weapon, the extreme hypothetical distance would be 150 yards.
Out of a 16" bbl, this is really the comfort zone for reliable fragmentation and or tumbling of the M193 (55 grain FMJBT), thus providing the best terminal ballastics for the center of mass shots I would be taking.

But at that extreme distance, it may be better to evade than engage, unless I am defending the castle. From my hilltop, 150 yards is possible, but not very likely. Of course, our Military uses the 5.56 effectively at longer ranges, but had to work up the 62 grain penetrator for better penetration at longer ranges, but its effects up close are not as good as the 55 grain. Some forces are using much heavier rounds with great success. My shooting budget does not allow me to stockpile large amounts of 25 to 30 buck a round defensive ammo. After learning its limitations, if I need more than a few boxes of specialized "defensive ammo" I will be relying on M193.

Many thanks to E. Spock, and to Neil.

In addition, after getting the basics down, I would devote more time training to shooting moving objects and/or while on the move than I would at shooting super long distances with the 5.56. Competition will also throw a little outside stress into the mix, rather than just punching paper.

Edited by Retcop, Feb. 01 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[superstratjunky]

IMO & not taking anything away from Red's post, my offensive engagements are going to be out to 300 meters & in. I'm a natural shot with the rifle when used old school, meaning the sideways stance.

However, for defensive purposes, I'm going to train with the new squared pistol style stance of the modern instructors. With that stance it will be 100 yards & in. The idea is, longer shots need to hit, where as close needs to be both defensive & accurate cover fire & or accurate close quarter engagement. Current zero is 75 yards. I suggest a 50 for you.

[rifleman2000]

I just with we could get more discussion on tactics and training going in here as it is of great interest to me. Things like once you've made contact and are falling back, when do you consider that contact broken/ended? When the threat has passed/ended? Ok, what does that mean? Once they've stopped shooting at you?

Contact is broken when you are not taking effective fire anymore. What is effective fire? If you are recieving effective fire you are either taking casualties from it, pinned down by it (can't move without taking casualties), or both. If the threat cannot put effective fire on you and cannot manuever to re-engage you, the immediate threat is over. Range is terrain/situational dependent.

Once you've gotten enough separation from them? What separation is that? 600 yards, 1000 yards? I understand that there are judgement calls along the way and those calls would be VERY scenario dependent, but just some things that run through my mind.

If you have time to clean your weapon and smoke a cigarette, you are in the clear.

Like going back to training distances and effective range of the AR. I would think that while I could probably hit a man sized target at 300 yards given the right conditions, but at 300 yards I would be probably be far enough away from them that I would choose to evade. Of course that is assuming strictly defensive situations and that I/we are not defending a home or stronghold. So then the AR would be my, get away from them by more than 300 yard weapon, similar to how people often refer to a pistol as a fight your way to your carbine weapon.

Just playing out scenarios in my mind and trying to relate that to my range or training sessions. Taking slow, deliberate shots with controlled breathing is of course good marksmanship practice, but I don't really see that as practical for self-defense. Maybe that's why USPSA events interest me so as it is to some extend practical. Even though some of the stages are quite a stretch from realistic.

At 300m, accurate fire will trump fast fire. If you can drill one guy with a single shot, the rest of his buddies will be a lot more cautious about pursuing you.

Thanks again! If you or anyone else has any ideas for stirring up more discussion on training and tactics, please give it a try.

[rifleman2000]

What distances/ranges do you envision you using your AR? Just trying to start some discussion that is more geared toward civilians, but I think most of the tactics into/input would come from mil/LEO.

I was chatting with an Army Infantryman recently about weapons and how the squad/unit make up is of course dependent upon mission, but also upon recognition of the fields of fire for each weapon. It got me thinking on the typical distances for each weapon, particularly for the M4. It is my understanding that it is a 200 yard weapon. Sure, it can probably be effective and capable beyond that with the proper ammunition, but that 5-200 yards is where the M4 shines.

So that got me thinking about how I see myself using my ARs. I live in an urban environment. Of course if something went down in my home, it would be in close quarters. But beyond that, I started thinking about distances in which I would use my AR outside CQB distances. At anything over 200 yards, I could probably hit a man sized target pretty consistently with an unmagnified RDS (if they were nice enough to stay still), but I probably wouldn't be able to positively identify him until they got much closer. Probably something like between 30-100 yards. So I would think that 30-100 yards would be a good range to spend more of my time training and then lesser from 100-200 yards.

Then I started thinking about optics on my AR. Right now I only have RDS without any magnification. I've been thinking about a 1-4x optic. I would think that would increase the distance in which I can identify/evaluate a subject, probably out to about 300-400 yards. How far do you feel that a 1-4x optic would extend the effective range of YOUR M4?

Anyways, just some thoughts running through my mind. Yeah, there are occasions when I have quite a bit of free time so ponder such things. Haha.

To address this first post:

How do you ID threats at range?
How do you determine shoot/no shoot at range?

Optics can certainly help ID targets without a doubt. But some of the guesswork/decisions need to be worked out prior to picking up your weapon. That is mission analysis. You have to develop an idea of what the threat is/might be, what are your rules of engagement (so you are not caught in a moment of indecision), and have a clear mission statement. For example, applying this to home defense:

Enemy forces- Anyone not my family in home without permission.
Friendly forces- 1st responders, family, neighbors.
ROE- Engage with lethal force all intruders that are between me and any family member or that move toward me and any family member.
Mission- Ensure that no harm comes to any family member.

See? All the hard questions are answered, your actions are pre-determined based on situation. (Those rules, BTW, are hypothetical).

You can do the same thing for any situation, say a natural disaster.

Enemy forces- Anyone in neighborhood that is not a resident, is armed, and is actively looting (see this is harder, requires more judgement, but you have basic rules and criteria).
Friendly forces- Police patrols, neighbors, National Guard Soldiers, etc.
ROE- Engage with lethal force anyone that threatens any level of violence in pursuit of looting neighborhood. Deter criminal looting with threat of force.
Mission- Stop looters from looting neighborhood and to eliminate any armed criminals that threaten violence.

Note the friendly force piece of the analysis on both examples. It is just as important as the enemy force analysis. You want to be able to predict both threats and non-threats so you can avoid friendly fire (recieving and giving). Plus it is easier to figure out who is bad if you know where all the good guys are.

Other things to consider during the analysis piece-
Enemy forces most likely actions; what are they most likely to do in the given situation/in response to your actions?
Enemy forces most dangerous course of action; what is the most dangerous thing they can do in response to your actions?
Friendly forces most likely actions and missions.

If you can piece together a good analysis and form a plan, you are more likely to be able to identify threats, non-threats, and have an easier time making quick calls. This does not guarantee that you will not have to make hard and fast judgement calls, and certainly not that you will always make the right call. But you will be far better off if you have made a good analysis prior to entering the situation than trying to figure it out as you go.

Also, note that your wife might consider you paranoid or a victim of combat stress... I call it prepared.

[drck1000]

Just a quick post to say thanks guys! This is exactly the type of discussion I was looking for. Different perspectives, scenarios, and many things to consider. Thank you for taking the time to share!

[drck1000]

If you are talking about using the rifle as a defensive weapon, the extreme hypothetical distance would be 150 yards.
Out of a 16" bbl, this is really the comfort zone for reliable fragmentation and or tumbling of the M193 (55 grain FMJBT), thus providing the best terminal ballastics for the center of mass shots I would be taking.

But at that extreme distance, it may be better to evade than engage, unless I am defending the castle. From my hilltop, 150 yards is possible, but not very likely. Of course, our Military uses the 5.56 effectively at longer ranges, but had to work up the 62 grain penetrator for better penetration at longer ranges, but its effects up close are not as good as the 55 grain. Some forces are using much heavier rounds with great success. My shooting budget does not allow me to stockpile large amounts of 25 to 30 buck a round defensive ammo. After learning its limitations, if I need more than a few boxes of specialized "defensive ammo" I will be relying on M193.

Many thanks to E. Spock, and to Neil.

In addition, after getting the basics down, I would devote more time training to shooting moving objects and/or while on the move than I would at shooting super long distances with the 5.56. Competition will also throw a little outside stress into the mix, rather than just punching paper.

Yep, I've read quite a bit about the terminal ballistics and performance of the M193. I have also started looking at other options for SD ammo. Not much available locally. I would have to order the Mk262 online and it would be quite pricey, probably close to $30 per box of 20 including shipping. There's a Remington Premier 62 gr BTHP Match King ammo that is available locally for a decent price that I'll be getting around to trying.

The evade vs engage is something that I've thought about quite a bit. Of course there are many variables, but I would think that anything near 200 yards, I would be looking to get more separation. Again, that's assuming I/we aren't defending our home or stronghold like you mentioned. My shooting budget does not currenlty allow stockpiling of lots of ammo. If I loaded up a few magazines, that would put a good dent in my ammo resources. I am slowly building up with gear and ammo, but I've been shooting so much lately, that the ammo has been going down faster.

I would love to shoot at moving targets and at steel in the 50-100 yard ranges. Facilities for that aren't available here unfortunately, or at least not regularly. Now that I've expanded the group of people that I shoot with, maybe more options will open up. I've found that there is a local mil facility that will allow DoD GS's to participate, so I'll be looking into that.

Yes, competition does throw a little stress into the mix. When I shot USPSA last weekend, I had a plan on how to engage the targets and twice (out of four stages) the plan went out the window, once after the first shot! In that case, I was planning on engaging steel in a certain order, but after I engaged the first steel popper, it blocked the steel popper behind it and I had to decide to wait until it fell or move on. I decided to wait until it fell, which cost me and also threw me off the rest of the sequence. I made it through, but I ended up engaging this set of paper targets twice because I didn't remember if I had shot them in a previous pass.

[drck1000]

IMO & not taking anything away from Red's post, my offensive engagements are going to be out to 300 meters & in. I'm a natural shot with the rifle when used old school, meaning the sideways stance.

However, for defensive purposes, I'm going to train with the new squared pistol style stance of the modern instructors. With that stance it will be 100 yards & in. The idea is, longer shots need to hit, where as close needs to be both defensive & accurate cover fire & or accurate close quarter engagement. Current zero is 75 yards. I suggest a 50 for you.

Both my ARs are zeroed at 50 yards. I've shot them at 100 yards to see what kind of vertical variation I get and I am able to consistently hit a 12 x 12 plate at 250 yards from a bench or kneeling. Hitting that 250 yard plate standing reduces my hit percentage ALOT!

For defensive purposes, I also found that I need to try other shooting positions. The range where I shoot doesn't allow for much variety in that regard, but shooting standing, kneeling, and prone are allowed. I haven't really tried prone yet.

[drck1000]

Rifleman,

"Contact is broken when you are not taking effective fire anymore. What is effective fire? If you are recieving effective fire you are either taking casualties from it, pinned down by it (can't move without taking casualties), or both. If the threat cannot put effective fire on you and cannot manuever to re-engage you, the immediate threat is over. Range is terrain/situational dependent."

This reminds me of that scene in Black Hawk Down where the new guy is asking the 60 gunner why he isn't shooting at the building crowd. The 60 gunner says because they aren't being shot at yet, even though you can hear gun fire and sounds of bullets whizzing their way. Something about a hiss being close. I understand that it fiction and they had ROE, but I remember thinking that they were already being shot at.

Yeah, I see how range is dependent on terrain, situational, and other factors like urban or away from the city. Too many possible scenarios to cover all, but just generally. I assume you also need to identify the who and what the threat is. It would be different if you knew that they had battle rifles with a longer range effective range than your carbines versus if they only had pistols. I would think immediate threat is when they stop shooting at you, but I would still be trying to get more separation.

"If you have time to clean your weapon and smoke a cigarette, you are in the clear."

Haha. I don't smoke. If I did, I guess that would be one of the first things I would look to do after an engagement. Either that or take a leak.

"At 300m, accurate fire will trump fast fire. If you can drill one guy with a single shot, the rest of his buddies will be a lot more cautious about pursuing you."

I agree that at longer ranges, a single accurate shot is probably more important than speed or follow-up shots since you have some time before he's right up on you. Yeah, you would still need to be accurate at closer distances, but the threat is also more imminent when they are in the "shouting distance". Like red mentioned previously, at closer ranges, you not only need him hit, but out of the fight.

Yeah, when a group sees their guys going down, that's would put a lot more caution into their actions.

[drck1000]

To address this first post:

How do you ID threats at range?
How do you determine shoot/no shoot at range?

Optics can certainly help ID targets without a doubt. But some of the guesswork/decisions need to be worked out prior to picking up your weapon. That is mission analysis. You have to develop an idea of what the threat is/might be, what are your rules of engagement (so you are not caught in a moment of indecision), and have a clear mission statement. For example, applying this to home defense:

Enemy forces- Anyone not my family in home without permission.
Friendly forces- 1st responders, family, neighbors.
ROE- Engage with lethal force all intruders that are between me and any family member or that move toward me and any family member.
Mission- Ensure that no harm comes to any family member.

See? All the hard questions are answered, your actions are pre-determined based on situation. (Those rules, BTW, are hypothetical).

You can do the same thing for any situation, say a natural disaster.

Enemy forces- Anyone in neighborhood that is not a resident, is armed, and is actively looting (see this is harder, requires more judgement, but you have basic rules and criteria).
Friendly forces- Police patrols, neighbors, National Guard Soldiers, etc.
ROE- Engage with lethal force anyone that threatens any level of violence in pursuit of looting neighborhood. Deter criminal looting with threat of force.
Mission- Stop looters from looting neighborhood and to eliminate any armed criminals that threaten violence.

Note the friendly force piece of the analysis on both examples. It is just as important as the enemy force analysis. You want to be able to predict both threats and non-threats so you can avoid friendly fire (recieving and giving). Plus it is easier to figure out who is bad if you know where all the good guys are.

Other things to consider during the analysis piece-
Enemy forces most likely actions; what are they most likely to do in the given situation/in response to your actions?
Enemy forces most dangerous course of action; what is the most dangerous thing they can do in response to your actions?
Friendly forces most likely actions and missions.

If you can piece together a good analysis and form a plan, you are more likely to be able to identify threats, non-threats, and have an easier time making quick calls. This does not guarantee that you will not have to make hard and fast judgement calls, and certainly not that you will always make the right call. But you will be far better off if you have made a good analysis prior to entering the situation than trying to figure it out as you go.

Also, note that your wife might consider you paranoid or a victim of combat stress... I call it prepared.

In addition to indentification of targets, how do you also evaluate likely threats? Like you mentioned, the enemies will not all be wearing the uniforms of the opposition forces. I assume that's a huge issue in Iraq and Afganistan where the locals are dressed the same as forces meaning to do you harm. I guess it would be looking at body language and other keys. Like knowing the body language of a pet dog or cat and know when they are annoyed and such.

As you said, there are a ton of difference scenarios and I'm not trying to envision and plan for each and any. Just trying to have thoughful discussion. I haven't really thought out what the end goal of that discussion is, if there is any. But one might be to try to weed out common denominators that can be applied to a range of situations. Like you said, enemy force, friendly force, ROE, and mission.

I don't think one could be ready for ANY and EVERY possible situation, but I believe that you can prepare yourself to have the ability to handle a wider range of situations better. I assume it's also one of those things that you'll never know how you'll react until you're in that situation. Like in competition shooting, I didn't know how I would react to that and if I would enjoy it. I found that I enjoy it and that my brain can handle it, but not as quickly as many other seasoned competition shooters. They've been through it more and while I try to glean information from them, you can't replicate/emulate their experience.

Again, thank you for your input! It is greatly appreciated.

[Paratrooper82]

Rifleman's post covers it well (even tho his avatar is 101st patch )! Most enguagments in comabt are less then 100 meters due to PID (postive ID). You need to get used to reflective firing Shooting, and moving. Gaining the muscle memory to enguage and still move from a covered, and concealed postition. And on a side note forget that old school shooting stuff. There is a reason why we dont use it anymore. If your engauge a target ar range (300 meters) you should be in the prone.

[rifleman2000]

In addition to indentification of targets, how do you also evaluate likely threats? Like you mentioned, the enemies will not all be wearing the uniforms of the opposition forces. I assume that's a huge issue in Iraq and Afganistan where the locals are dressed the same as forces meaning to do you harm. I guess it would be looking at body language and other keys. Like knowing the body language of a pet dog or cat and know when they are annoyed and such.

You recognize the enemy forces (threats) by their behavior. That is why you do pre-analysis, so you can predict what behaviors indicate threats. You compile your list of "threat indicators", watch for them, and when you spot them, do an assessment.

For example, a person with a truck full of electronics and valuables can be either a looter or someone evacuating with all of their stuff. So you will need more than one indicator or threat behavior in most cases. The only clear cut threat indicator I can think of is if they are shooting at you; in that case, they are most likely hostile.

The environment can give you clues too. For example; in Afghanistan it was common to see people in the market, kids playing, etc. So if you drive through one day and the place is deserted...

So look for people that are out of place, furtive, aggressive, etc. If you are in your own neighborhood and you see someone that is obviously not a neighbor... (you can see why telling police to not profile is insanity, "profiling" is a survival tool).

[Jeff Franz]

To the OP's original question - I find myself VERY hard pressed to envision a circumstance where I would be justified in using deadly force past 25 yards as a civilian, barring some tuly catastrophic event that would most likely lead to the end of civilization as we know it (we're all f'ed anyway if it gets that bad). Even for most LE applications, the use of a carbine is usually pretty up close and personal. That is not to say there are absolutely no acceptions, but I really think they would be EXTREME outliers and not something I would build my gear around. As a well noted instructor once told me, you want to select gear that will work for you 95% of the time, and adapt for the other very small percentage. For a home defense gun, I'd venture a guess that 99.9% of the time, I'll be shooting up close and personal, and an unmagnified red dot or irons will serve that purpose far better than anything with any magnification. Having shot magnified optics on close targets, I can tell you that it can be "distracting" and slow shooting times considerably inside of 25 yards or so. However, if I was building a 3-gun rifle, I might consider a 1x4, as targets are frequently engaged out at much further distances. I would probably run a red dot off-set for close in targets in that situation.

ETA: I would advise against using a magnified optic to identify targets. Remember that where ever you point the optic, you are pointing the muzzle, and if that person or persons you are identifying are no shoots, you just broke an important rule of firearms safety. On a military battlefield, probably not a problem. For the LE or civilian, not so good. Furthermore, magnified optics typically have a very limited field of view, which can limit your identification capabilities. Using a set of hand held optics is a better option in my opinion.

On the training side, we routinely run drills at 100 to about 175 yards on sets of 10x10 and 8x8 AR-500 steel. It's not something we do at every range session, but we do it frequently enough to sharpen our skills. Shooting off-hand at those distances requires more precise application of the shooting fundamentals. The smallest lapse in fundamentals easily results in a miss on 10x10 steel at 150 yards. Therefore, shooting at those distances from time to time forces us to slow down and work on the fundamentals, which makes us sharper and more confident up close.

In conclusion, choose gear that supports your most likely application for your rifle, and use distance training to sharpen your skills, but don't lean on them too heavily if 50 or even 25 yards and in is where you are most likely to employ your weapon.

Edited by Jeff Franz, Feb. 03 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[drck1000]

Rifleman's post covers it well (even tho his avatar is 101st patch )! Most enguagments in comabt are less then 100 meters due to PID (postive ID). You need to get used to reflective firing Shooting, and moving. Gaining the muscle memory to enguage and still move from a covered, and concealed postition. And on a side note forget that old school shooting stuff. There is a reason why we dont use it anymore. If your engauge a target ar range (300 meters) you should be in the prone.

Thanks Paratrooper!

Could you please enlighten me? Haha. What is "reflective firing"? Or did you mean reflexive firing?

When you mentioned "old school shooting stuff", did you mean bladed firing stances? Whereas the modern shooting stuff is the isoceles stance? Just want to be clear on what you're referring to as I visualize these situations.

I know that shooting from cover/concealment is something that I need to work on. To be aware of your position relative to the barricade, both offset from the barrier to get clear your muzzle as well as to not get caught up on it when you return to cover from your shooting position. Something that I'm getting some extent of experience with competition shooting.

[drck1000]

You recognize the enemy forces (threats) by their behavior. That is why you do pre-analysis, so you can predict what behaviors indicate threats. You compile your list of "threat indicators", watch for them, and when you spot them, do an assessment.

For example, a person with a truck full of electronics and valuables can be either a looter or someone evacuating with all of their stuff. So you will need more than one indicator or threat behavior in most cases. The only clear cut threat indicator I can think of is if they are shooting at you; in that case, they are most likely hostile.

The environment can give you clues too. For example; in Afghanistan it was common to see people in the market, kids playing, etc. So if you drive through one day and the place is deserted...

So look for people that are out of place, furtive, aggressive, etc. If you are in your own neighborhood and you see someone that is obviously not a neighbor... (you can see why telling police to not profile is insanity, "profiling" is a survival tool).

Yeah, kind of what I was thinking. I would think that I wouldn't really be sure of someone's intentions to the extent where it called for use of deadly force until they either were shooting at me (at any distance) or were basically trying to get into my home. Of course there are many more scenarios, but that's kind of what I was getting at. The subjects would have to be pretty close for me to 1) positively identify them or 2) for me to determine whether they are a real threat or not.

[drck1000]

To the OP's original question - I find myself VERY hard pressed to envision a circumstance where I would be justified in using deadly force past 25 yards as a civilian, barring some tuly catastrophic event that would most likely lead to the end of civilization as we know it (we're all f'ed anyway if it gets that bad). Even for most LE applications, the use of a carbine is usually pretty up close and personal. That is not to say there are absolutely no acceptions, but I really think they would be EXTREME outliers and not something I would build my gear around. As a well noted instructor once told me, you want to select gear that will work for you 95% of the time, and adapt for the other very small percentage. For a home defense gun, I'd venture a guess that 99.9% of the time, I'll be shooting up close and personal, and an unmagnified red dot or irons will serve that purpose far better than anything with any magnification. Having shot magnified optics on close targets, I can tell you that it can be "distracting" and slow shooting times considerably inside of 25 yards or so. However, if I was building a 3-gun rifle, I might consider a 1x4, as targets are frequently engaged out at much further distances. I would probably run a red dot off-set for close in targets in that situation.

ETA: I would advise against using a magnified optic to identify targets. Remember that where ever you point the optic, you are pointing the muzzle, and if that person or persons you are identifying are no shoots, you just broke an important rule of firearms safety. On a military battlefield, probably not a problem. For the LE or civilian, not so good. Furthermore, magnified optics typically have a very limited field of view, which can limit your identification capabilities. Using a set of hand held optics is a better option in my opinion.

On the training side, we routinely run drills at 100 to about 175 yards on sets of 10x10 and 8x8 AR-500 steel. It's not something we do at every range session, but we do it frequently enough to sharpen our skills. Shooting off-hand at those distances requires more precise application of the shooting fundamentals. The smallest lapse in fundamentals easily results in a miss on 10x10 steel at 150 yards. Therefore, shooting at those distances from time to time forces us to slow down and work on the fundamentals, which makes us sharper and more confident up close.

In conclusion, choose gear that supports your most likely application for your rifle, and use distance training to sharpen your skills, but don't lean on them too heavily if 50 or even 25 yards and in is where you are most likely to employ your weapon.

Thanks Jeff!

Regarding the typical engagement range, I would agree that's what I would think would occur in civilian scenarios. I was thinking that anything beyond about 25 - 50 yards would be in trying to get enough separation to get away from the threat. Since I live in a condo, that also changes some things as well.

I see your point on the magnified optics. I honestly had not thought about that.

Regarding training, I would live to have a place where I can go and shoot anywhere from 5-100 yards. Our range facilities here are quite limited to civilians. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to get into competition shooting. They have pistol matches and occasionally rifle side matches where the shooting is in the 3-10 yard range. Otherwise out rifle ranges are only targets at 50 and 100 yards and no movement. If we did have ranges like I see on some of the youtube videos where people can set up IPSC and steel targets and run carbine course type training, I think I would be broke because of all the ammo I would have to buy. Haha.

While I do enjoy popping steel with my unmagnified red dot in the 250-350 yard ranges, I realize that is not practical. I can hit a 18" diameter plate at 450 yards, but I honestly can barely see it without magnification.

[rifleman2000]

To the OP's original question - I find myself VERY hard pressed to envision a circumstance where I would be justified in using deadly force past 25 yards as a civilian, barring some tuly catastrophic event that would most likely lead to the end of civilization as we know it (we're all f'ed anyway if it gets that bad).

ETA: I would advise against using a magnified optic to identify targets. Remember that where ever you point the optic, you are pointing the muzzle, and if that person or persons you are identifying are no shoots, you just broke an important rule of firearms safety. On a military battlefield, probably not a problem. For the LE or civilian, not so good. Furthermore, magnified optics typically have a very limited field of view, which can limit your identification capabilities. Using a set of hand held optics is a better option in my opinion.

Jeff, I wholeheartedly agree with these points, but there are exceptions and they are worth addressing.

Either way I think it is a good exercise to game out using a rifle to its full capabilities. It is not improbable that folks in rural areas, folks in the area of massive natural disaster, or a myriad of other Murphy's law scenarios would want to be ready to use their weapons at max range.

I wonder if we have any folks that were in New Orleans post-Katrina that could shed light on the conditions there.

As far as target ID with a scope, a good set of binoculars or even a durable spotting scope can be very handy (and save you from having to point a weapon at someone to ID them).

I do believe the most important piece of the pie (when using lethal force, regardless of range) is good judgment. That should go without saying, but good judgment is best supported by careful analysis, some forethought and planning, and lastly some equipment that can meet your needs.

Edited by rifleman2000, Feb. 06 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Paratrooper82]

drck1000,

I sent that post from cell phone. I ment reflexive, but auto correct didnt like that...

Yes I mean old school blading vs isoceles stance. Shooting from a covered concealed position should be trained alot! You watch people on TV using car doors. Well in a pinch ok however, a bullet will penetrate. Engine block, wheel hubs are better choices. 'laying on the grouns with your feet on the wheel, and shooting under the vehicle is a technic being taught now. I have seen people buying old cars and towing them to ranges for training aids (shooting from inside, and around).

Edited by Paratrooper82, Feb. 06 2012 - 01:32 PM.