Fine, just keep in mind for every man who dreams of the rules of society going away and never coming back, there's a hundred who dream of restoring those rules and society.

The thing people forget here is that the people their are probably 1 of 2 things. They are serious badasses and to start shooting, no matter how good you are and from what position, you will be killed by their security detail, you may get a couple of them, but that is small compensation for a permanent dirt nap. More likely, they are just everyday people, trying to do what you yourself are trying to do, stay alive and keep their family alive. The law and God are pretty clear on this, kill them and you are a murderer. Even if the law never catches up with you, God will, and if even if you don't believe in God, your wife is never going to talk to you again, and that should be reason enough. If TSHTF we will only make it through as a team or we will not make it through at all.

This post has been edited by MontanaLon: September 5th 2009 5:39 AM

Its no problem. That's what the forum is here for to think these things through mutually.

It really is easier to think of this as "a man will do what a man has to do" and take that as a given. It then becomes not your first thought and therefore not a plan.

Waste them all is not a plan. That's an action. Its a given action if its necessary.

We'd need even a plan on how to approach the house let alone how to assault it. Without intelligence, we wouldn't even know why we are doing an assault. All that life saving stuff may have been taken by the first people to break the door down and those in there now after finding a door wide open and empty place. It could now be part of a new community with every house in ten miles descending on whoever commits what they see as a crime, a very likely scenario btw. We may think we're insuring survival while the only thing we're insuring is we don't survive.

Someone taking my BOL is always a tough topic with a gazillion what ifs.

Tj

I've no doubt that eventually some sort of societal order would resume - BUT if things are bad enough to force some sort of "bug out" for me - basically it means that it IS TEOTWAKI and at that time and in that situation - law and order are gone, do what is necessary to see to the survival of those I care for, and deal with the repercussions later.

Expanding this situation - IF I'm bugging out - it would have to be to a place that was either public land that "everyone" owned, or a piece of private land that I owned. If that land is MINE, and those people are stealing MY things, endangering MY family - then the choice is clear to me who lives and who doesn't. That also means that if I own that piece of land - everyone in the surrounding area is going to know that - be it the sheriff, the city folk in the closest town, and the land owners surrounding my hunk of land. The idea that I'd be dealing with some "community" wouldn't be of a huge concern, unless someone else overran the "community" that surrounded my BOL. It might be an ugly situation when and if law & order is restored, but I'd rather deal with the ugliness of the legal issues after surviving the societal break down, than to have my family suffer because I let someone else take what was not rightfully theirs to take. In a TEOTWAKI world - someone squatting in your home, eating your food, drinking your water, using your supplies and weapons is damn sure a lethal threat to you - and thus in my mind - lethal force is the appropriate solution.

I'm not advocating a Zap Brannigan like charge against the home with no plan - but I AM advocating the elimination of everyone who is stealing food out of the mouths of my loved ones - potentially depriving them of their lives. Might be cold hearted - but if that kind of situation DID come about - 99% of the world's population be damned - I'd do what is necessary to ensure the survival of my family - the lives of the squatters would be meaningless to me at that point. They would be endangering my life, and the lives of my loved ones.

Again - 'talking' to their 'leader' and explaining that "this is MY land, MY house, MY food" etc probably would go over like a lead balloon. Even IF they left - they'll very likely be back, with more reinforcements. Like a pack of hungry, wild dogs. Talking would not be a feasible option for me. The talking would be best left up to Mr's Glock, Smith, Colt, Browning, etc. I would not be keen on the idea of keeping strangers in my home - strangers that would in all likelihood in that situation - be happy to slit my throat in my sleep to ensure their survival.



But this really is not a great concern for me - it's a mental exercise. I'm not bugging out anywhere - I don't own land somewhere in the boonies, and the likelihood of this level of a societal break down to force me from my home into fleeing into the hills is near zero - even in today's political climes - so the chance that I'll ever have to make the decision to kill a group of strangers like that is also near zero.

The slant on survival scenario discussion is what angle you come from.

Most come from "Prepare for the most likely scenario first and least likely last." with EOTWATKI on a permanent basis dead last.

The most common reason why people in the US bugout is a house fire. Not too many folks bugin on that one. Other personal reasons are chemical spills and economic upheaval. This is followed by regional issues like fires, hurricanes, floods, and social unrest.

Though social and technological development turning back to the middle-ages is a very popular topic for science fiction writiers, its actually extremely difficult if not impossible to come up with a scenario where it could happen in real life because you may be able to kill man but not knowledge unless you kill all men.

Tj

In the case of house fires, floods, or regional disaster - we wouldn't be heading to some 'secret' bugout locale - it'd most likely be moving to stay with relatives until the situation subsided, or until the insurance came through with the check so we could move elsewhere.

Social unrest would be a situation that we'd bug in on more likely than not. We're not on a city water supply, we've got a generator & fuel for it. We've got food. We're far enough outside the urban area that there's not too many people around, and close enough in that people 'bugging out' are going to bypass us whilest they head for the hills most likely. Our place doesn't scream "they got stuff!" like a lot of other places around here do.

Preparing for the most likely is how we live - I'm not preparing for Zombie Apocolypse and hoping only for an earthquake. As I've pointed out in this thread, and many others - the likelihood of a total societal breakdown is nil without some major event. Even if my area gets hit with an earthquake - where I live, there probably won't be much in the way of looting/rioting. We're not inside the urban area - we're still out in the rural part of the county. The people in the cities might have to deal with that crap - but the looters and rioters would have to pass through a few miles of farm country to reach us - and there is less and less worth looting as you leave the city and head for our place. In this scenario - anyone trying to rob/loot our home would be dealt with within the bounds of the law - because we wouldn't be dealing with a total societal breakdown - or at least a long-term breakdown. At that point, I'm affecting a citizens arrest, and the law states I can use whatever level of force is necessary to effect the arrest upto deadly force. If they got aggressive - it's a self defense shooting. I'd notify the law and they could deal with it when they could deal with it. We've got fields and orchards surrounding the house to stack the corpses in if the law can't get to us in a timely fashion (I wouldn't be leaving some diseased, festering corpse just sitting on my porch or in my house if the cops say they can't get to it in a reasonable amount of time. That's what wheel barrows, respirators, and rubber gloves are for...)

I'm much more concerned with just keeping the house warm (or cool), keeping hydrated, clean, and fed.

This is an interesting scenario. I don't know what I'd do; I don't even have a BOL as of yet.

I did see a similar scenario presented on a TV show. I know its tv, but it does bring up some of the questions and decisions that would need dealt with. The show "The Colony," has a community occupying a warehouse type building for a while, using/making supplies after some large event. At some point (I don't know the time elapsed or the event itself, it was the first/last time I saw the show) the "owner" of the building and much of the food supplies, uses a key to access the building through a locked door.

The community debates even letting the persons stay and wants them to adhere to their food/water/supply usage rules. The original owner sees them as squatters and the supplies as his own. Disagreements/confrontations ensue, there is a phyiscal scuffle, and ultimately the new people who own the building leave with some of the supplies. Now this show takes place in LA, so I don't think most people would have their BOL there or in any major city for that matter, but it doesn't seem to be out of the realm of possibility that if you can find your BOL that someone else can too.

That all said, the show got me thinking, but I'm still not sure what I'd do. You would basically have a group of people, who you likely do not know, squatting and using your supplies. I would now be an outsider in my own place. I'm not sure how comfortable/safe my family and I would be there with other people I don't know. Could you trust them? Could you go to sleep? Would the temptation of introducing new supplies in any quantity be too much for these people? I'd be seriously concerned about a us (the familiar community) vs. them (the new people we don't know but have supplies) mentality.

In the show no one had any firearms, but that seems unlikely in real life, as I think it would be unlikely at a true BOL too. Even if I was capable skill-wise, which I'm not sure I would be, I don't think I could murder a group of people who are ultimatly just trying to survive too, and certainly not in front of my family. I think it be a different story if I was already at my BOL and then a group came along and tried to take from us by force. So I'm not sure I contributed an answer, other than I don't know, and I hope no one has to deal with this scenario ever...

This post has been edited by cc2001: October 18th 2009 11:29 PM

Very simple solution.

Never stock your BOL.

All supplies should be well hidden a short distance away from your BOL.

The affect is multi faceted:

1) anybody who is looking for a shelter that has food and supplies, will move on after finding your BOL under or not stocked.

2) those people will not come back looking for rations, nor tell anyone it is a good spot to find them.

3) if ever your BOL was sieged, not much can be taken at one time, limit your liabilities!

This post has been edited by deskjockey: December 1st 2009 4:11 AM

Visit My Website

************You may have to deal with the likes of these in this video, insted of a bunch of low-life skidders from some town.*************


I live four miles from a small town and one mile off of the main road. Been here sence 1961, this is my BOL, I'm not going anywhere. Well over a dozen like minded others. Included are three surgens and some first responders ect...All have our own water wells and most have generators. Some of us have our own shooting ranges and shoot a lot. Some, if not most, play around with small gardens. I'm not letting anymore out of the bag, but outsiders would present problems that need delt with. I will cross that road if the time ever comes.

There are others in this area that think the same way. If one of those groups ran out of supplies and came looking, well, now that would be a "worse case scenario".

First thing ,what Tommy said.
Second: if your not prepared to do what ever is Necessary , your not prepared. If you have to stop and think it through you might end up with a nice little hole in your forehead. Mental preparedness is just as important. If you haven't FULLY contemplated the idea of killing someone,( and all that goes with it) your not ready.
If you have a hide out, you need to set it up so you KNOW if someone is already there.Maybe even boobie trap it. Learn to read sign, and be alert to everything around you.

This post has been edited by dupa220: January 12th 2010 11:54 PM

Maybe we should all get together and go on a little field trip.