I am new to these forums, so I hope this question is not in the wrong discussion board but I couldn't find anything more suitable. I am in the market for a new handgun for personal protection and range shooting. My friend is a SA/XD fanatic and will hardly discuss the 10mm cartridge with me even though he is usually a very reliable informant. He owns an XD in .45ACP and out of some stupid hate he harbours for glocks and all things 10mm he won't give me a good honest answer on the cartridge.

I figure you guys are on 10mm talk for a reason but I am hoping some of you have owned or currently own both 10mm and .45ACP handguns preferably a XD. I like the XD's but wound up reading up on the 10mm based of off cartridge comparrisons in a book I recently purchased. This got me thinking about the XD in .45ACP that I was about to buy. I have never fired a Glock or XD as I currently only have a .32 S&W Long as far as handguns go. Alas I need some advice. Do I go with .45ACP or 10mm? Can I go more wrong with either one? I really appreciate the 10mm's versatility as an avid handloader for .30-06 and .308 but will not deny the .45 it's proven performance.

I am looking at the Glock 20SF and the EAA Witness as well as the XD. I have heard the whole .45 goes in as a .45 and only expands in addition to 10mm's seemingly superior terminal balistics and accuracy; especially down range. I am bumping up from a decidedly older cartridge and I cannot afford to go the "Buy both!" route. I have either choice A or B.

Logic tells me the 10mm full power loads make the .45 look stupid from a terminal balistic standpoint. The 10's versatility allows me load from .40 S&W energy to full power 10 for training and familiarity in addition to exceptional personal defense. The .45 doesn't allow me that to the extent that the 10mm does. I don't know anyone within 100 miles of me who owns a Glock 20 or a Witness so I couldn't compare them to my friends XD. Can the 10mm be my end all be all, or is there really an undeniable reason the .45 has been so successful for so long.

I am almost embarrassed to have to write this out on such an exceptional forum full of well versed gun owners but I don't really have a choice as I cannot directly experience these guns before I buy one. Yes I have checked all rental ranges in a 300 mile radius and cannot find a single one that carries a 10mm gun. The 10mm has been called a niche cartridge but I see a TON of potential and cannot state the amount of versatility this round seems to bring to the table. Please help a fellow gun owner make a logical and calculated decision on something I feel should not be thought of lightly.

Lastly if I were hypothetically to go with 10mm would you go with a Glock 20/SF or EAA Witness. I cannot afford an $800 pistol so I'd prefer to keep it sub $550. I would carry concealed so please keep that in mind. Accuracy is paramount but unless one gun trounces all over the other in this category I would be more concerned with comfort and concealability.

I really like XD pistols. Sadly, they do not offer them in 10mm so the XD is not an option in 10mm.
You mentioned concealed carry, so if you want a 10mm the best choice in my opinion is to get a Glock 29 or Glock 29 SF. Glock 20 mags also work in the 29, so you can have 10 in the pistol and a backup 15 round mag. Another bonus with the Glocks is that you can get conversion barrels for .40 S&W or 357 SIG (or an even rarer caliber, 9x25 Dillon) that will allow you to shoot .40 S&W for practice, for example. The conversion barrels are the only part you need to change calibers.

I send emails to Springfield every now and then asking them for XD's in 10mm. I'd really love an XD(m) in 10mm.

If you are going to take the responsibility of carrying a pistol your first priority should be proficiency rather than caliber. If you like XD's get a 9mm subcompact, get good training, work with it until you are proficient, then think about moving up to a Glock 29.

Well the 10mm is what it is, superior to the 45ACP! If you are a handloader you will enjoy 10mm even more with the versitility of bullet weights & types.

The Glock is a very reliable pistol, the only draw back is the looser chambers do let the brass expand more than others! There are aftermarket goodies out the yan yan! to include barrels of caliber and conversion calibers. I have the G-29 and absloutely love it, It's chamber is tight as compared to other G-20's. So I doubt you will go wrong with the Glock!

Best regards enjoy the forum, get the 10mm! But be warned...10mm is addictive and NO ONE CAN HAVE JUST ONE!

As you say, we are here for a reason and so you are unlikely to find people advocating the .45ACP. In my case the only reason I bought a Glock in the first place was because there was a 10mm version and, for theoretical reasons, I wanted a 10mm. Since then I have come to really like the Glock family and I would recommend them over the XD or the Witness without personal experience of either. It depends on what you wish to do with the pistol of course and that is a longer essay.

The Witness in its more expensive versions, such as the Elite Match, will usually have a better trigger and will usually be accurate but it is heavy and bulky and above all it suffers from patch quality control. If you are lucky it will be very good but still might need some problem solving. When they are good they are very good value for money. I nearly bought one but the bulk and the ergonamic of the safewty and slide release put me off a little but the patchy QC was the clincher.

I don't have personal experience of the XD but some clever design has gone into it. Like the Glocks, they have their committed fans. They seem to be reliable, the trigger is reasonable out of the box but they don't come in 10mm.

The Glock is light and projection free and so easy to carry. It is accurate enough though not as accurate as a good Witness but you must remember that it is designed for reliability rather than extreme accuracy. For $30 you can fit a TR Graham match slide stop which will improve the accuracy, groups of half the size seem typical. I do not believe that this will change reliability at all. With a little hand work and an aftermarket connector such as the Ghost Tactical or Rocket you can make the trigger action very good though not the equivalent of a tuned 1911 or good single action revolver. The Glock trigger action is part of the compromise you accept for a pistol that does not depend on a thumb operated safety. As you are a reloader you have more than enough capability to do all this yourself for a total of $65 or thereabouts. The availability of such parts is one of the benefits of the Glock.

The Shadow mentioned that Glock chambers are loose. This was, again, to improve reliability in dirty conditions but more recently Glock has, I believe, changed it specification to address this issue. In any case, you can get aftermarket barrels made to tighter tolerances from $100 upwards. This is something that does not exist for XD or Witness. Likewise you can get conversion barrels for .40S&W and 357SIG for $100 from Lone Wolf. If I remember correctly a 6 inch 10mm barrel from Lone Wolf is about $140 - this will add about 150fps. It is worth saying that lead bullets really should not be fired in Glock Barrels but all of the aftermarket barrels have conventional cut rifling which presents no problem. Or you can just shoot it as it is - Glock trigger actions as they come from the factory are now also better than they used to be. Don't let this put you off. The G20 is a great pistol but it can be made even better.

I have the G20 but not the G29 and so I can firmly recommend the 20 from personal experience but all I know of the 29 is universal rave reviews from owners.

I hope this helps.

English

You know this always comes down to Neutons Law and is a smaller bullet at a higher velocity better than a bigger one at a slower velocity.

I'm a advocate of both so will not venture an opinion either way. I will advise you to visit this site and look at the load data for both calibers, which will help you make up your mind:

Hogodon

Really making up your mind on caliber is the big decision and that influences which gun you buy.

The popularity of the .45 is two fold. Its a long proven caliber originally conceived by test firing into animal carcass. Seeing how it came about, its little surprise its been a known man stopper. The other and probably more important is the ammunition and ammunition components are very common with more options available at any given time than a 10 mm. In short, the .45 is still a very effective weapon system, its more cost effective to run.

I own an XD .45 and its one of my favorites. Its light for what it is, carries well, accurate, and with proper handling and cleaning very reliable. I own many other guns as well including a number of different .45s.

Still, even though I do not own a 10mm yet, (I always say yet because I have the gun bug bad), I'm not going to tell you not to buy a 10mm either. If you visited that site I posted it has some very interesting ballistics. Now if you pay attention to those pressures generated by those loads, pressures equate to recoil. Right around the 180 grain mark, the 10mm with a max load is not only going to kick like a mule but very closely immolate the .44 magnum.

That's awfully tempting. The .44 mag is one of my all time favorite hand cannons. When you get up around the 200 grain mark and up the two calibers, .45 and 10mm, start ballistically looking a lot closer and the larger diameter of the .45 gains an edge from a terminal ballistics standpoint.

I'm afraid it really does come down to a personal preference with higher cost, less available components, and more versatile on loads (ballistics not components) vs lower cost, more available components, and lower variability on loads (ballistics).

Personally if I was looking for a handgun with a hot medium size fast bullet, the 10mm would be high on my look at list. I enjoy both the .357 magnum and .44 magnum calibers so have no doubt would be very pleased with the 10mm. If I was looking for a higher volume shooter with more bullet weight, then my nod would go to the .45. The fact I shoot both the .357 mag and .44 mag is probably why I don't have a 10mm yet. It is also why I do appreciate the 10 mm.

There's no wrong answer.

Tj

Tallgeese, it sounds like you already "reload" and are leaning the 10mm's direction. I would buy the Glock and the additional barrels. You would have a gun for hunting, and the versatility of the .40 S&W cartridge. If you want to stay "mainstream" buy the .45 ACP and work-up some hunting loads for it. I own pistols in both rounds, but prefer the 10mm for hunting. The .45 Super is a good alternative to the 10mm also. Personally, I would stay away from the "Witness" line of pistols.

I have two Witness guns, a standard full-size and an Elite Match. I have a shooting friend who has a standard full-size as well. All three are good shooters.

My take on the Witness is they are about as good as any other gun I have owned, save my Glock. My Browning Hi-Power, Ruger P-90, CZ-75, Delta Elite, and Taurus PT-100 all required some break in (couple hundred rounds) before they ran well. My standard Witness was no different. I did change out springs, as recommended here.

I think the QC issues the have come from terrible customer service on those guns that do have problems. I read about plenty of guys sending all manner of guns back for different issues. However, most companies resolve these issues quickly and with little fuss. EAA has a rep of trying to blame it on the customer.

No offense intended TJ but that's just not true. I've owned over half a dozen 44 Mags (S&Ws and Rugers) over the years and shot a lot of different loads out of them, all heavier than 44 Specials by a long shot. I'm on my 3rd & 4th G20s and had a Delta Elite and a custom double stack 1911 in 10mm for a time so I'm speaking from personal experience. Even the vaunted Double Tap ammunition (and they were 180s) was nothing like a 44 Magnum, either the Model 29 or the Blackhawk/Super Blackhawk. The DT 180g Bonded HP in the G20 felt about like a 230g +P 45 in the G21. Both more controllable than trying a 250g hard cast, flat point bullet over 24.5g of 296, DA in a model 29.

Dave

I gotta second what Dave T says. Full bore 44 mags even out of a 629 with a 7.5" barrel are only marginally fun to shoot. 10mm is a pussycat by comparison.

Get the Glock. Trust me on this one. I've carried everything from Ruger pistols, to Sig Sauer. If you're considering it for defensive use, get the Glock. It just works. It works with almost boring regularity.

I really appreciate and am enjoying your feedback. I have researched essentially into everything that has been brought up and in a nutshell it seems:

An EAA Witness is a good gun and great buy if you snag a good one.

A Glock is a Glock is a Glock...many aftermarket parts, easy to use, reasonable price, and exceptionally reliable. I handled the 20 and 21 SF at Cabela's the other day and very much prefered the new SF frame over the older 20/21 frame. I did not get to handle the 29 or 29SF for that matter; however I am curious as to which is preferred for carry. 29SF seems the obvious answer however I have friends that swear by full sized pistols only. I am not too concerned with weight as I will/would more than likely carry simply the gun and one extra magazine. Size may perhaps make a difference, but would I lose more than it's worth balistically with the shorter barrel or would the lower velocity be advantageous esp. in the category of over penetration?

This handgun is primarily for personal defense and range shooting. I would be carrying it out on the farm when I am there however this is not intended to be exclusively a hunting handgun. I am slightly above average height with a slim athletic build so I don't want my gun to stick out like a sore thumb when wearing summer clothing. I again have never carried before so I'm asking for advice from you well seasoned afficionados.

I think I will shy away from the Witness because I don't have the expertise to tell whether it will be a solid gun before I buy it or not, and cannot afford a $900-$1000 Dan Wesson. It's either Glock 20SF or 29SF from here on out. Do the newer 20SF's have a tighter chamber or is that only in the 29/29SF? I don't want anything that absolutely chews up brass. Also in an aftermarket barrel which brand would you guys recommend? I hear much of Lone Wolf but at a very reasonable $110ish for a new 10mm barrel do they have a tighter chamber and can they throw a lead bullet? This is where my friend chimes in and says my XD can shoot lead out of the box, why buy a new Glock and turn around and replace the stock barrel...you are overpaying to shoot.

Good gosh, I hope the 10mm cartridge is really worth it. Statistics say it is a superior fight stopper slightly edging the .45 ACP, and we all know it is far superior downrange. Is it as simple as choosing between a Ford and a Chevy? I am excited about going with a new and theoretically very impressive cartridge but the .45 is battle proven and stout. I wish I had a little bit more peace of mind. DT's 10mm loads are super sexy and the 165 grain offering has an astonishing amount of expansion but when we speak of personal defense are full power loads going to over penetrate so that it doesn't fully expand to those measurements?

Maybe I am asking too many minute questions and am forgetting the overall picture. Excellent versatility, impressive performance, higher fight stoppages, and increased capacity of the 10mm.

I have a G29 and now a G20sf longslide. I agree, the SF is definitely better, i haven't heard anything about the chambers being any tighter though. If you are going to carry then I say go with a G29sf. You aren't losing much ballistically with the shorter barrel however you can always get a 1/2" longer aftermarket barrel if your that worried about it. Only bad things about the glocks are the triggers but thats nothing a connector and trigger job wont fix.