While I have not tested 155gr. GDs at full-throttle, I would think the result would be similar to the 180s. That is, smaller overall expanded diameters compared to the same bullet at .40S&W velocities with deeper penetration. I favor the XTP over the GD or GS for full-throttle 10mm loads, which is why I can't wait to get my hands on the TA XTP loads.

In every other caliber (except 357 magnum which is the 145gr. Silvertip), I carry Gold Dots. 147gr. 9mm Gold Dot and 230.gr .45acp Gold Dot and for the most part in 45 Colt as well (usually 250gr. Speer Gold Dot. The only exception is my 45 Colt snubby which gets loaded with CorBon's 200gr. JHP. I plan on testing the Winchester 225gr. Silvertip in 45 Colt as well. I've heard good things about the 225gr. Silvertip (calibrated gelatin testing), so it may replace the 250gr. Gold Dot in my service-size 45 Colts if expansion and penetration are more consistent than the 250gr. Gold Dot.

I probably won't be buying any 155gr. or 165.gr GDs or GSs since I don't plan on carrying those loads. If you guys wish, I could test your loads if you send me a couple, but since I'm shooting live animals that don't want to be killed instead of wet newsprint that plays nice and lies still, there is no set date when I will be able to test them. As it looks now, there is still no shoratge of feral dogs, so I am sure I will be able to test everything I plan on testing. Those SOBs taunt me every now and then by howling from a distance, so I know there are still plenty to kill.

If I can get enough of them to stand together side by side, maybe I can wack them with my 50BMG. Man, that would make for a great video!!

This post has been edited by turbonatr: December 20th 2005 2:34 AM

LOL, yeah, set up a feeding trough and then sit in a blind perpendicular to the trough...

I would pay to see that video!

You been hunting in Texas much?

Great, thought provoking information turbonatr. Way to go man! Thanks for sharing it with us.

Couple thoughts:

1. I had concerns about 200 grain XTPs from Double Tap over penetrating so I'm pleased to see that you were able to recover the bullet from a dog.
   
   
2. On a round like the Gold Dot that folded back on itself, I'm thinking that while the final shape of the bullet is smaller because of this, wouldn't it be likely that along it's path through the dog it would have reached it's maximum possible expansion before folding back?
   
   If that's correct perhaps the round will cause more damage than it might seem on the surface from viewing the photos because during the course of travel part of that distance is with the bullet fully expanded. I guess part of that would depend on how long it held at that maximum expansion point before folding backwards.

Glad you found the info useful! Let's see if I can answer your questions...

1. Keep in mind all these bullets entered the front of the chest and traveled from front to back, not side to side as with a broadside shot. This is how I am able to recover the bullets. The 200gr. XTP traveled about 20 inches, so, yes, it would most certainly fully penetrate a human torso from about any angle.

2. The Gold Dot's final diameter is indeed smaller than the rest of the loads tested due to the petals folding back and under the base of the bullet. This is typically judged as less than good performance because final expanded diameters are smaller than what they would be if the bullet performed at it's best. Also, the bullet expanded much quicker than it would if it were moving slower which causes it's petals to fold back rather than blossom. So, to answer your question, no, maximum expanded diameters are typically not acheived during it's travel through the body. It's wound channel overall was narrower than the other loads I used and it penetrated deeper. The bullet (GD) also seemed to loose more weight than the slower loads did, even the Silvertip which has an undiserving reptation of shedding mass (I have not found this to be true, so long as the ST's velocity is not faster than it was designed for).

Hope this helps!

Thank you, Turbonatr. That was VERY illuminating! It is amazing what "field tests" bring to light on ANY ballistic endeavor! Evidently, the Silvertip still works quite well in the field and on the street.

Your tests are deeply appreciated.

This post has been edited by gunfan: December 26th 2005 8:32 PM

My pleasure, gentlemen. I'm glad you are getting some use out of this info.

Got back from the range a little while ago to get some chrono numbers and accuracy data from my shipment of Reed's Ammo & Research 175gr. Silvertips. This load averaged 1201fps from my G20 in 38* air and was much more consistent than Winchester's factory load. Reed's also sells this load cheaper than what I get Winchester Silvertips for online and Reed's sells them in 50 round boxes. Looks like I am going to shoot up what Winchester Silvertips I have on hand as range fodder and start packing Reed's custom factory Silvertip load. Accuracy is excellent as well.

Probably going to order some Texas Ammo XTP's after the new year to test on dogs. Stay tuned!

This post has been edited by turbonatr: December 26th 2005 8:50 PM

Early in my law enforcement career, we had to dispatch all the problem dogs in the community as there was no dog pound. Very isolated rural area.

What I found matches the dog responses noted here. No consistent performance per say in terms of any kind of consistant immediate reaction or response.

We used a variety of handgun cartridges and my favorite was the 41 mag. however we also used 357 mag., 45 auto and occasionally 44 mag.

While ballistic jellatin has temporary expansion cavities that are impressive, I honestly think it has little to do with any real world effect per say, at normal handgun velicities other than to see if bullets expand and as a relative basis for study of expansion. This is partly because (and as it turned out when dispatching big dogs) that the MOST consistant was a 357 mag, with wad cutters at moderate velocity. Why,? we never figured out unless it was like being poked with a blunt stick

My own theory is that pain inflicted slowly gives a body's nervous system time to really react and respond to the trauma versus quick damage that while just as effective in the overall, my not trigger the same nervous system response. This all off course is damage inflicted below true hydrostatic shock wave velocities which we are not talking about in terms of these handgun cartridges per say.

So....what is the 10MM really good for??
Deep penetration with fair caliber size with the right bullet AND fairly large shoulder and bone breaking capability as compared to some of the other choices. I would much rather whack something bigger than me in the shoulder with a fast moving 200gr. hard cast or good fmj from a 10MM at 1200 to 1300 than ANYTHING from a 40 S&W.
For man sized targets, well thats another story and the 40s&w or 10MM are both pretty good especially with good shot placement, which ALWAYS matters.

Paul

I agree 100% and thanks for the reply!

With service-size cartridges, it does seem reaction from the target is pretty much the same (unless a CNS shot is made), that is, they usually turn and run until they bleed out. Forget about muzzle energy and energy dump. It's just not going to help. Place your bullet(s) where they need to be as quickly and accurately as possible and kick yourself in the ass for not having a rifle nearby!

TURBONATR

It simply cannot be said any better than that!!!! You are spot on and accurate.[i]

I love this forum.

Has anyone ever recovered a D.T. 200gr FP? Determined total penetration in any scinario? I'm thinking of picking up a case of that instead of the 200gr JHPs for road trips to the mountains for 4-legged attackers as well as the 2-legged kind in a pinch. The 200 FP seems, in theory, like a good all-around round.

.

I would like to see what happens with the DT 135 grain JHP. I have some recoverred from wet newspaper and there was significant fragmentation.

I really think you are onto something about dellet design. It is interesting to note that the 10mm Silvertip is an old design. Winchester put it out at near full house loading years ago and have never changed it. If bumped up slightly by DT I bet it would hold up much better than a 180 grain Gold DOt designed for 40 S&W.

Look at the 200 gr XTP. It openned up really well, penetrating very deeply. It also I believe was a round desinged for the 10mm. That is the round in my backup mag, simply because I figure having rounds that will work on most 4 legged or through cover might be benificial, especially if I have used up all my 135 grains.

I may have to drop DT an email asking for a Silvertip loading...

I wonder how the Hydrashock would perfom at increased velocity? Too bad I do not believe it is available for reloading. My local Sports Authority is selling them for $4.99 a box of 20 to get rid of them. If I was was comfroatble loading to DT velocities, and I am NOT, I would buy a bunch, pull the bullets, and reload them...

I'd donate a pack of mag-safe swat loads to see how they work on the feral dogs, I've used them on NV coyotes and they preformed well but the coyotes are small less then 50lbs.

I was thinking that the whole time I was reading this post.... I think that the smaller, "folded back" shape of the DT load would only imply that it moved faster through its media while opening up. The other bullets seemed to spread out and "catch" like a parachute and stop; actually expending LESS energy through penetration. Who knows, just a thought.

I'm still carrying DT. :)

The 180gr. GD had the smallest diameter wound channel of the bunch (including the subsonic 9mm JHP load). The dogs also showed no difference in reaction after being hit with the highest muzzle energy round (the 180gr. GD) compared to the round with the lowest muzzle energy (the 9mm and standard pressure 230gr. 45acp load).

interesting.

Actually, it's pretty typical for a bullet pushed that fast when it really wasn't intended to. The same bullet 300fps slower went 14" and expanded to .80".

Factory Speer 180gr. GD in .40S&W from my old G23. Same test medium (feral dogs).

Sounds like we need to get on Speer (and others) to build a bullet designed for 10mm velocities so DT and everyone else have a chance to make their faster loadings truly more effective.

Poor dogs.

This post has been edited by nickE10mm: February 1st 2006 11:21 PM

Won't happen. The bullet they are offering now expand at lower velocities...lower than ever before. This means you, the customer, get optimum/maximum terminal performance without the recoil and blast normally associated with "magnum" handguns. Remember, carry guns are getting smaller and smaller. If all we had were bullets that expanded at very high velocity, recoil would be obnoxious in these little guns. The ammo makers had to address this and they did so by giving us bullets that expand at the lowest velocities ever. Making bullets designed to hold together and expand propery at very high velocity would defeat the point of the millions of dollars they spent on R&D with their current JHP offerings.

Besides, the only thing you would get more of with bullets that expanded properly at high velocity is more blast and recoil. You would not get a better or faster killing bullet. Remember, these are just handguns...not rifles. Take a good look at that "generic" .45acp 230gr. JHP. .75" expansion, standard pressure, very little recoil and blast...and this is from a "budget" JHP! Better terminal performance than what we had 15 years ago from "premium" JHPs. Look at the 147gr. subsonic 9mm JHP. Larger overall expanded diameter than the much more powerful 10mm Gold Dot. It's all about bullet construction and being pushed to optimum velocities...not pushing the bullet as fast as possible.

IMHO, if you want a "full-power" 10mm load that performs well terminally, it's either the Silvertip or the XTP. The Gold Dot just does not do very well in my experience at full 10mm velocity. Again, this is coming from a Gold Dot fan!