My parents live next to a 200+ acre semi-wild shooting preserve that is leased to a local hunting club. There is large wildlife presence on the preserve which is a good thing. Unfortunately, wild feral dogs are among the wildlife. They are a huge PITA to the neighboring property owners which includes a horse and chicken farm...and my parents. These dogs make their way outside the preserve and wreak all kinds of havoc. My parents called me to see if I could take a few out of the picture for them (on their property, no shots were taken off their land). I was happy to accomodate them, of course. I posted a few .40S&W and .45acp JHPs recovered from a shoot a few years ago. Unfortunately, that thread has been purged from the system.

In all, five feral dogs were taken, one PMC JHP exited and was not recovered. This time of the year, the dogs are at their heaviest due to thick winter coats. They were about the size of my Siberian Husky which is about 90lbs.

From left to right, two 175gr. Winchester Silvertips, one 170gr. PMC JHP and one 180gr. DoubleTap Gold Dot. Firearm used was my daily carry buddy, a second generation G20 with a 24lb. recoil spring.


10mm JHPs Pic

Man, goes to show that even factory Silvertip ammo expands adequately enough! :evil:

I have only fired various handloaded stuff in the fine sand dunes we have here in NM.
Most of the JHP's were just barely intact.

Here we have coyotes and javelina, which are the closest "dog" sized animals.

Could you reveiw shot placement?
Direction through dog's body?
Length of travel?
Reaction of dogs after being honored with a 10mm round?

Hmmmmm...... The DoubleTap didn't do too good.....

I thought the same thing...but then remembered where the bullet was recovered from.
It's not a classic spread, but it did the job.

All shots were taken front to back. Broadside shots result in lost bullets from complete penetration (from 9mm on up).

One PMC bullet fully penetration front to back, the second nearly made it the length of the animal. This came as no surprise as this bullet tends to fully penetrate 18" gelatin blocks. The second bullet expanded nicely. Good load if you want a deeper penetrating load with low recoil (but it does have muzzle flash).

The DT Gold Dot went around 18-20" due to over expansion. Petals folded back and under the base of the bullet. This load had the smallest recovered diameter. The bullet is very distorted for a Gold Dot. The typical uniform and textbook expansion is not evident with this load in my experience. Point of note, this same bullet loaded in a .40S&W case and averaging 1008fps from my old G23 (factory Speer 180gr. Gold Dot load) had expanded diameters over .80" and were nearly the size of a quarter. I posted pics of recovered .40S&W 180gr. Gold Dots a few years back on GlockTalk, but these threads have been purged from the system as well as some 9mm and .45acp pics I had. This bullet definately seems to perform better at .40S&W velocities. While the bullet did not out-right fail, it didn't do as well as it did 340fps slower. Speer techs report 1300fps is within the operating window for this particular bullet and while it may not completely fail, it's obvious it does not perform optimally.

The Silvertips went 14-16" and had the largest recovered diameters of around .75" or so. They appear to have shed very little if any of their original weight. Very uniform and consistent expansion. This load averages around 1200fps or so from my G20 and around 1250fps from my 5" Delta Elite. 1300fps is capable from my 6.5" S&W 610. This has always been a very reliable performer for me and is my carry load of choice. For an often called "outdated design", it certainly seems to hold its own. There is something to be said about a bullet that is driven to its originally intended velocity.

All bullets broke various bones; shoulders and ribs. Even so, the feral dogs did not drop in their tracks. They ran, broken shoulders be damned. Sometimes they drop, sometimes they don't. I have had specatular kills with subsonic 9mm JHPs and disappointing failures with 10mms and .45s (and vice versa, of course). After all, handguns are handguns, not rifles. Distance from the dogs was within 25 yards (well within mostly). They typically don't run further than 50 yards with proper shot placement. The reason I shoot them front to back is because broadside shots nearly always result in complete penetration and lost bullets. After losing many bullets and not being able to learn anything from it, I started to shoot front to back to better my chances of keeping the bullets from exiting.

The bottom line is carry what you wish, but don't fool yourself into thinking your 700+ft/lb carry load will drop and attacker like a lightning bolt. The ability to place your shots accurately and as quickly as possible is far more important. Ever since I actually started to shoot live animals with my service-size pistols, my priorities have changed and I have learned quite a bit.

Stay safe and shoot straight.

This post has been edited by turbonatr: December 11th 2005 5:08 AM

Turbonatr-thanks for the nice report. Real world experience is hard to beat.

My pleasure. Not everyone has these opertunites presented to them, so instead of relying on strictly gelatin tests and opinions from bullet makers, I like to share my findings with the people who aren't able to get real-world results. More loads will be tested in the future. When I get everything together, I'll post those results as well.

Enjoy.

Yup, it did the job. Thing is, it didn't do it any better than the loads with less recoil and blast. In fact, it's performance was a little lacking compared to the loads that were up to 340fps slower. What you have to ask yourself is if the added blast, recoil and wear are worth less terminal performance. As stated, the Speer techs were right in the bullet didn't completely fail, but it didn't perform better than it does at .40S&W velocities. In fact, the .40S&W 180gr. Gold Dot performed better. All these dogs ran about the same distance after being hit. The difference in muzzle energy between them (as little as 416fps for the PMC load and as much as 726fps for the DT load) didn't result in any different reaction from these animals. In fact, I got similar results from subsonic 9mm JHPs like the 147gr. Gold Dot. Sometimes they fell, sometimes they ran. Most of the time they only drop if both shoulders are broken. Thing is, if they have broken shoulders, chances are they can't run anyway, so it has nothing to do with muzzle energy.

Do you think the 180gr gold dot's performance would be consistent?
If so that would be somewhat disappointing.

I'm carrying DT 165gr golden sabre in my delta gold cup...any chance of testing them?
I'd even be willing to donate a box...assuming you don't run out of feral dogs.

Your experience doesn't surprise me. I've shot a few dogs myself and handguns on a large dog are not one shot wonders. One shepherd size dog I shot through the chest with a .45 HP showed absolutely no reaction at all. He was walking by me about 5 yds away and just kept on walking. Didn't even wince. A head shot finished him.

The biggest advantage of the 10mm may be at long range with its better ballistic coefficient and velocity.

There's a lot of wisdom in Clint Smith's philosophy that if you know you're going to be in a gunfight bring a rifle.

Excellent report. The Winchester Silvertip has always been a good performer in the 10mm. Double Tap ammo is loaded to full 10mm potential, unfortunately, most hollowpoint 10mm bullets today are actually designed for the slower 40 S&W. The over expansion and fragmentation of the Double Tap round would seem to prove that real 10mm ammo needs real 10mm bullets, not bullets designed for 40 S&W.

Turbonatr,

Using what you have learned in your real world exercises, what load do you now prefer to carry for self defense in 10mm?

Reading through this makes me think that to use the 10 mm on deer or black bear something like a round nose tappered jackected 240 gr bullet at about 1100fps would be about right. I don't see anyone listing such a bullet. Does anyone know of something like this?

I think 220 grains is the heaviest bullet you can use in 10mm due to case capacity limitations. I think with this weight you are limited to solid bullets, no room for hollow cavities. If you need deep penetration either the 220 grain or 200 grain solids are your best bet.

Damn, reports like this make me a little nervous about my DT's. Are they traveling too fast for optimal terminal performance? That's the question that's bothering me. Should I go back to Sivertips? Hope someone else can provide some additional shooting results for us.

It would be interesting to see DT load up the Silvertip... It seems to hold tegether at 1300 FPS, I bet Mike could add another 100 - 150 on top of that.

In my experience, yes, the 180gr. Gold Dot at this velocity performs like shown above consistently. I have used this (and many other loads) against feral dogs and deer and got virtually the same performance. Typically, the petals fold back and under the base of the bullet and the slug tends to penetrate deeper with smaller overall expanded diameters than the same bullet at .40S&W velocity. Animals I have shot with service cartridges do not show an appreciable difference in reaction to being hit with loads that range in muzzle energy from 350fpe (standard pressure 230gr. .45acp and subsonic 9mm) to loads in excess of 700fpe (full-power 10mm and 357 magnum). As stated, I have used the same bullet at 1000fps and got around 14" of penetration and expanded diameters over .80". When I carried a G23, that was my carry load, the 180gr. Speer Gold Dot.

I don't have any 165gr. Golden Sabres on hand at this time. Golden Sabres tend to go a bit deeper than Gold Dots, so if the Gold Dot already goes a bit deep, expect a Golden Sabre to go even deeper. If your happy with your current load, by all means use it. However, just don't expect it to be any more effective than any other premium, modern JHP simply because it's faster. As stated, while these bullets may be within their respective velocity windows and probably won't completely fail, that doesn't mean they will peform better than the same bullet going 200fps slower.

Mike has done an exceptional job at reviving the 10mm with loads that match and exceed the Norma loads of way back. However, technology went the other way with regards to bullet performance. Todays bullets are designed to expand at lower velocites than the bullets of just 10 years ago (let alone 15 to 20 years ago). While we do get the exhilerating BOOM that we expect from the 10mm with full-power loads, actual "on-target" performance may actually suffer.

My carry load has been the same for a while now, Winchester Silvertip.

Ever since I started killing live animals (instead of wet phone books, etc.), my outlook has changed. The wet newsprint and even most gelatin tests result in picture perfect expansion with JHPs that look like flowers. This is a little misleading as to how they will actually perform when the bullet hits real bone and tissue. I like to take data from the lab AND the field and then make a decision based on what I learned from both test proceedures.


This post has been edited by turbonatr: December 14th 2005 12:42 AM