I work for a construction company and it turns out that the local club that my boss is a member of runs ISPC and IDPA one weekend out of every month. I talked to one of the contractors that does it and he offered to let me use one of his rigs if I wanted to come out and try it one weekend. I will be doing so hopefully in about two weeks.

I currently have a Beretta Cougar .45, a S&W Model 57 .41 mag, and a Beretta 96 Brigadier in .40 s&w. His first piece of advice was, "Get a 9mm."

I've often entertained the idea of getting one, but never gone through with it because I'd always rather have something bigger. If I'm going to shoot a lot, then a 9mm makes sense because ammo is relatively cheap and the recoil is easy. My thoughts are:

Beretta Elite II - I've already got a high level of comfort with the Berettas even though they don't seem (from what I've seen on the internet and what this guy said) real popular for IPSC. A guy at my local shop just told me they were being discontinued and that there were currently no plans from Beretta to continue this concept in the new "ninety two" series. It's also expensive.

Sig Sauer P226 - I shot one once and it was really accurate, though a tad on the heavy side (a plus, really, since I'll be shooting a lot). This gun costs almost as much as the Beretta Elite but people's attitudes seem to be that Sig is a cut above Beretta.

S&W MP - I held one the other day at a store and it felt very good in the hand, though I've never fired one.

I'm not a fan of Glocks or their clones, so those are my main choices. Any input would be much-appreciated.

Your choice of weapons on the Sig and the Beretta are great. Both are great weapons, but not really what you would want for a competition gun. Here are some reasons.

First off, the Sig no matter what model you get your max capacity is gonna be 15 rounds. You might be able to get an extention for the mags to give you around 17, but thats about it. Same goes for the Beretta as they are basically the same mags. If you go to limited class you will be totally out gunned going up against guys like me shooting Glocks with 40 limited with 20 rounds and 9mm limited with 25 or so. Even worse if you have guys shooting an STI or Para P-18.

Also your first trigger pull with those two weapons is a long double action pull which is great for carry and safety, but not good for competition. You want consistent trigger pulls to be light and smooth. Again they are great combat weapons, but not a good gamming gun.

You should really try that M&P. Mags hold 18 rounds of 9mm and the recoil is light if not at all. Trigger pulls are light and the same short consistent pull each time like a 1911 or a Glock. Alot of guys are shooting the M&P's now at our club and they love em. Cnemikeman from here shoots one in production class. Hopefully he will chime in.

Good luck with your decision and let us know if you need anything else.

g10

My advice: don't buy ANYTHING till you get out and try a match or two to make sure it's something you want to do. Shoot the Beretta for now, and shoot in L10 division. You'll get major scoring, but not really suffer too much on equipment for now. I'm currently shooting an M&P in both L10 and Production (same gun, .40 cal., just diff loads) and really like it quite a bit. I happen to own an STI Edge that I have put back in storage so I can play with the M&P. It's a hell of a good gun.
Get out, be safe, and have fun. You don't need a bunch of fancy equipment, just need to practice and have fun. Ask all the questions you want, Richard and I will try and answer the best we can.

-Mike

As far as equipment goes, Im just running a Sidearmor OWB modular that I made my own speed cut on and two double mag pouches from uncle mikes. They work great, fit great and I can rotate them for Limited. Next to my gun and mags, Ive got around 70 bucks in equipment compared to some guys having well over 300 in it.

Doesnt take much to compete. Thats why they set up the Production division so guys that the basic equipment can compete.

g10

All of the guns you mentioned are fine, but to maximize your competitive edge (especially in IDPA) you need a 9mm. In IPSC, a 40 might be a better idea, but I don't own one, so I wouldn't know.

The G34 is the gold standard of SSP IDPA guns, but if you don't like Glocks, then you'll need to find something with the size, recoil absorption, and capacity of the G34. What about the Springfield XD 5" Tactical model?

I'd steer you away from the XDs......... just FYI.

I concur. I bought and tried the Xd 9 and 40 tactical and it just wasnt for me. The stock trigger sucks to all end. To much play, slop and pre-travel for me. I never felt like I got a solid pull. With some Canyon creek or Springer Precision trigger jobs it makes it a while hellova lot better, but still not a Glock. I've been told by alot of guys that shoot 1911's and dont like the grip angle of a Glock, love the XD.

Also if your shooting Prodution XD's are ok, but again jumping to limited and your kinda out gunned as with the sigs.


g10

I will probably take what I've got in addition to borrowing the stuff this guy told me he'd lend me and see how I do. I don't know what this place normally does but the guy made it sound like I could shoot Limited 10 with what I've got and do just fine. He also said there was a "single stack" category for .45's, which I believe he said had an eight round limit.

So if you're being scored for major power factor against a bunch of guys shooting 9mm's and .40's how does all that tend to wash out? You still have to take the same number of shots, which means more mag changes, right?

How many people really use oddball cartridges like the .38 Super and 10mm in these types of competitions?

One thing I did not like about the couple of Glocks I shot were the triggers; Will the XD or S&W MP (I couldn't pull the trigger on it because the store used trigger locks) feel significantly different from a Glock? It's been probably eight years or so since I've even fired a Glock, so maybe I should give one another shot. Thanks for the replies.

Edit to add: What I did not like about the Glocks I fired was that they were DA only. I was under the impression that all Glocks and the like were DA only. Is this truly the case? I prefer DA/SA or SA only.

This post has been edited by rhawes: July 21st 2007 12:18 PM

All "C" class production shooters shoot with other "C" class production shooters. All Limited 10 "B" class shooters shoot with limited 10 "B" class shooters and so on.

If your shooting single stack with a guy who is shooting a 9mm and your shooting a 45, and your both in "B" class, you will be in the same class. However you will be shooting major and he will be shooting minor. He will get scored against higher in penality points since he is shooting minor. Each miss or hitting a no shoot or a failure to engauge will be counted against you higher if you are shooting minor. USPSA thinks that if you shooting a mouse fart load then you had betteer be hitting your target


Glocks are neither DA or SA. Its called a safe action. The xd's, M&P's and all others that mimmic the Glock have no hammer to strike the firing pin. They have a striker that is held in place by the trigger bar and is released kinda like a sling shot inside the gun. Out of all the Safe action Pistols, Glock the original one, has done it right. They have no slop after the reset and the trigger is smoother than the rest. Glocks are also alot eaiser to work on and parts are plentiful. Give another one a try and see what you think.

g10

What about the S&W Sigma series? I know that they're direct Glock knock-offs but they're being blown out everywhere for $300 and come with 17 round magazines.

Does mag capacity really make that big a difference? What if you're toting 15 round clips as opposed to 17? Is that really being all that "out-gunned" or does the time it takes for the mag swaps hurt your score that badly?

Mag capacity will matter depending on what division you choose to shoot.
In production, doesn't matter, because everyone only has 10 rounds in their mags....... in Limited 10, same way. In Limited and Open, though, it'll eat you alive if you can't run a min. of 18....... also, take a few minutes and familiarize yourself with the USPSA current rulebook, which can be found online at Rulebook
Do NOT get a Sigma. You will regret it. Trust me. :)

I guess I'll be shooting production then because as of now I'm not into the idea of putting a lot of money into a gun. I just want an excuse to buy a new one. :)

Ok, so give me the dirt on the Sigma. Why should it be avoided?

The trigger is HORRIBLE. Period. And NOTHING can be done to fix it.
I'd recommend, in the following order, these polymer guns:

M&P (9mm or 40)
Glock 34 (9mm) or 35 (40)
XD 5" Tactical 9mm or 40
HK USP 9mm or 40

Any of those will work for you for a solid Production gun, and won't break the bank.

-Mike

Don't be afraid to try out the other divisions-- I shoot Production, Limited 10, Limited, and even Open now and then, all to mix it up and give me a change of pace. :)

I just thought I'd check in to let you guys know I shot some practice rounds today after going and helping set up the stages at the local gun club.

I learned that I am slow, and am not particularly accurate for being slow. I need practice. I also learned that since there are so many things to do, there are also many ways to screw up and break safety rules.

I'm borrowing a friend's Glock 35 to shoot. It's trigger is much better than I remember Glock triggers being, but I still don't particularly care for it. I'm going to shoot the actual tourney tomorrow and will put my ISPCA status as "pending." I'm pretty sure I'll come in as a D, but hopefully if I concentrate I can make C.

Where's the best place to buy my own belt/holster, etc? Also, the hard plastic mag pouches were hard to pull the mags out of. Are there any out there that are particularly easy to use? I was told that a softer material like cordura was out of the question.

I prefer kydex for everying. I just use my own instructors belt for now.

If your interested, ive got a sweet production set up for sale in the classifieds, its a CZ in 9mm. All you need is ammo and your set.

g10

Since you liked the SIG, I thought I should mention that the P226 is available w/ the extended "scout" magazines that offer 20 rounds in .9mm and 15 in .40. Also, you might want to look at the P226 X-Five it's a more competition-oriented gun and offers 19 rounds in .9mm and 14 in .40.

As a disclaimer, I'm not a competition shooter so I have no clue what the regulations are on what you can use, but the X-Five was used in IPSC, if that helps any.

The P226 Scout model (SCT) also has a fiber-optic front sight that a lot of people seem to like. Any P226 is a great gun, but like glock10mmman said, that first DA pull isn't the greatest... 10 lbs I think.

Anyhow, hope it helps.

Since someone posted to this thread last month I guess I'll give a little update. I wound up buying a S&W M&P in 9mm used for $425, and it turned out to be a real good shooter. I bought a speed belt and got some mag pouches and a holster from Bladetech. I shot one practice session with it and never got to a tourney. I got laid off and throttled way back on my shooting. Like, all the way back.

But, I'm very pleased with the M&P. It's the most ergonomic handgun I've ever held, recoil is very manageable in 9mm, it fed 1000 rounds of total crap ammunition (seriously, this stuff was trash) without misfeeding any of it, and it was impressively accurate at 25 yards with the garbage ammo. I use the smallest back strap because I have small hands, so this feature is a bonus for me. The trigger is not smooth but I like it more than a Glock and I've read that there are places doing trigger jobs for them for a nominal fee.

The next thing I have my eye on is a Sig 2022 in .40. They have them on special at Buds Gun Shop. I just need a higher paying job.

This post has been edited by rhawes: October 19th 2008 11:30 PM

There's nothing wrong with the Sig 2022, but it's not a gun I'd suggest for USPSA competition. It would be at a disadvantage in both Production and Limited-10 since the sight radius is on the short side, which will also mean it has more muzzle flip (short slide)....neither of which will help you at all.