I ordered a box of some TAP ammo, but I was wondering if there might be something better? Price doesnt really matter as long as I can order it in 20 round quantities.

Use a short barreled shotgun and shoot turkey loads (or #1, #2, #3 buck).

Have you ever seen what a turkey load does to a piece of plywood 15 feet away?

Big hole.

The best shotgun load for defense is definitely buckshot. #1 is about as light as I'd go. 00 is a proven performer and the Federal and Remington reduced loads pattern really tight, ensuring more shot on target and best energy delivery and best penetration potential. Bird shot is for birds and may not give adequate pentration to really get to vital organs from all angles.

I still lean to the carbine for puttting rounds right where I want them and delivering a lot of energy with good penetration.

Check out the Box o' truth website for some good info on ammo comparisons for defensive use. It is a good site to check out. Well put together and pretty entertaining as well as informative.

Box o' Truth

The TAP ammo is very good stuff. Cor-Bon also makes some fine ammo, and Black Hills is another favorite ammo company for me.

This post has been edited by SSGN_Doc: July 30th 2009 1:44 AM

Edited to add: I just looked at the Box o Truth tests, and he did a great job, but I have to disagree with what he says about #1 buck, based on what I have been told by cops that I know. They nearly all recommend it as a very effective load with plenty of penetration at close range that has some measure of safety to it.

I am on the look out for some #1 buck, but it's hard as hell to find around here. Everyone is hoarding it as self-defense loads.

At my local Bass Pro Shop they are selling a ten pack of magnum #2/#4 combos as self defense loads for $25... that's basically a heavy turkey load, which you can buy a lot cheaper... they are also selling BB shot packaged the same way for the same price for the same use. The manager and I were talking about it and laughing about the power of marketing. He also recommended #1 buck. The reasoning is that it is less likely to penetrate drywall and kill someone in the next room, but it is lethal as hell out to about 60 feet, 20 paces, and who is going to shoot farther than that inside a home?

This post has been edited by Alden: July 30th 2009 2:36 AM

Federal TRU 55gr soft point or Remington Express 55gr soft point are both rounds used by police in duty carbines. I think Pepper and JC both use Remington 55gr soft point in theirs.



TS

Talking about #1 buck, it is better than 00 or 000 for deer but for defensive use inside a house #4 buck through cylinder choke is hard to beat. #4 buck through a choke is even better for deer, I never lost one with it, aim at the head, like for a turkey.

In an AR for home defense a 50 or 55 ballistic tip is hard to beat, it will expand and do massive damage but not penetrate 2 layers of drywall in anything but little bits.

As for the digression away from 5.56 and into shotgun rounds there is a better option if you load your own shotgun rounds. We called them Rhodesian Rounds in the military. Learned by the mercs in the Rhodesian war they simply mixed bird and buckshot together to form a devastating close range round. A real sausage grinder round. We had our armorers make up small batches for our entry guns in Beirut.


The real TAP round (red box) is serious ammo, getting back to 5.56 stuff. I also just bought some Black Hills 60 grain V-Max ballistic tip moly coated rounds that I expect should be rated just about as good and a little cheaper too. If Barnes ever gets around to adding a ballistic tip to their .223 TSX round like they have with other calibers then that might become the best you could get for soft targets. The current .223 TSX should still be a winner anyway though.

Handloaded ammo is not a good idea for home defense as it can be made to look like the shooter just wanted to kill someone.


The TSX would be a good bullet and better tipped but not for home defense. It will hold together and penetrate too well.

All my opinion, based on what I have read and seen IRL.

This is for .223/5.56 ammo.

But if I were to use some form of a shotgun. Id use this stuff.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/10-r...s.aspx?a=377126

Good thing I live in Texas then since there would be no discussion of the ammo I used if the cops decided that my act was legitimately self defense.



That's precisely why I wish they would add the ballistic tip. It still may not fragment, but between the rings and the extreme expansion it would create a massive wound channel. This TSX is supposedly closely related to the brown tip Socom round that US SpecOps teams have been using and info about it has been vigorously expunged from military discussion websites. Needless to say, all this secrecy has me intrigued.






That's pretty much like a Rhodesian Round, though the pellets are larger. I think it would make a fine home defense round.

Here's a supplier of something closer: http://www.firequest.com/catalog/rhodjunglemoreinfo.html

But they sell too many gimmick rounds for my tastes and charge a ridiculous price. What they charge for a mere box of 25 would buy 4 times the amount of the Sportsman's Guide offering and they aren't known for being cheap either.

5.56 isn't necessary at home defense ranges but M193 and M855 for HD isn't wise, IMO. It may not hurt using ballistic tips or soft points.



TS

Would you guys reccomend the 55gr, 65gr, or 75 gr TAP for home defense? Im guessing the 75 right?

This post has been edited by AnonymousD: July 30th 2009 11:02 PM

The 55gr TAP is a ballistic tip and doesn't penetrate as much. The 75gr is close to the SOCOM 77gr ammo. If you have family inside to worry about you may want to go with the 55gr. The 75gr will have more knockdown power.


TS

So the 55 gr is the only one with the ballistic tip? I have a box of 55 gr, and Ill stick with that for now.

The 60gr has a ballistic tip as well. It's supposed to have a little better terminal perfomance than the 55gr.



TS

There are two kinds of TAP.

The ballistic tip called FPD and comes in a black box and sold to everyone.

Then there is the older TAP in the red box geared for and marketed to law enforcement.

Both are good self defense ammo, but the red box is geared for police snipers at longer range. It's more like match grade ammo.

Imo, they both will do the job well at short range, as normally found in the home, but should you feel you want some more accuracy at longer range then go LE red box.

I bought the red box because I simply want the option to extend my range accuracy and because I prefer the plain brass casings. I don't go shooting TAP enough to make any respectable pile of reusable brass, but like the extended range aspect I still like the option.

I like having the ability to have the 5.56 as well. I have some 75gr TAP 5.56 and some .223 as well. I like TAP, especially .223 55gr because it has consistent accuracy out of any barrel I use it in. I like Remington Express .55gr SP because it's available all the time and the fact that it will mushroom for good kills and less wall penetration.



TS

If you want the true 5.56 NATO red box TAP you have to dodge Hornady's efforts to keep it from you. They don't want it sold to civvies and is why they came out with FPD. They don't want the liability that comes from the heavy 75 grain round jammed into guns that only have .223 barrels. Only cops and government agencies can order it from them.

The way it gets out is some dealer offers a cop a deal to buy a bunch and compensates them for the fact that the cop might never be able to buy from Hornady again. Hornady regularly buys sample boxes through intermediaries from these online sellers and then traces the batch numbers back to the sale to the cop. Then they cut him off for good. So the online guys will offer a cop a deal where the dealer has the cop buy 10K rounds and lets the cop keep 2K for free as a personal lifetime supply.

Needless to say, this this process only happens from time to time and when the ammo becomes available it goes in no time.

The company that seems to pull this off the most is ATG.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/pro...roducts_id/1776

Copy that link and bookmark it. Note that it is a dead link right now and it will stay dead until ATG gets the special ammo in again. It might be weeks or even months before that link goes live again and you will need to be religious about checking it. If you are truly serious about getting this stuff then hit it every darn day no matter how long it takes. Last time I wanted some I hit that link every day for 6 weeks straight and they said that was actually a short wait.

Also note that while I think Hornady is being silly for this level of control of their product they do it for a legitimate reason. Do not put that 75gr 5.56 NATO TAP into a rifle that doesn't have 5.56 NATO stamped on the barrel! You could certainly burst a .223 chamber with this round. If this bothers you too much then know they also sell a .223 75gr version as well that they don't get so pissy about and you can find usually any time you want. Naturally, that .223 version will work in a true 5.56 barrel.

I get my red box TAP from ATG.



TS

Ill keep a look out for it.