This was cross-posted at Glocktalk in the 10mm Reloading Forum.

THESE DATA ARE NOT FROM A RELOADING GUIDE. YOU ASSUME ALL RESPONSIBILITY CONCERNING YOUR USE OF THESE DATA.

After much theorizing, I decided to load Hodgdon Lil’Gun in the 10mm. My starting loads were based on a number of factors:
--maximum working pressure for the 10mm (which, at 37,500, is lower in practice than some people realize);
--Hodgdon’s various Lil’Gun loads for the .327 Federal, .38 Super, and .357 Magnum;
--total grain capacities of the 10mm and the above calibers; and,
--my experience with the 10mm’s slowest recommended powder, Accurate #9.

These factors do not add up to an ability to perfectly predict the outcome. But I am happy to note that not only was I able to complete the testing safely, but I came up with some rather promising results.

Components:
--Hornady 180 grain XTP bullets;
--New Starline brass;
--CCI 350 Magnum Pistol Primers.

Everything I read about Lil’Gun indicated that it requires a magnum primer and a heavy crimp. In preparing these loads, I seated and lightly crimped the bullets with a conventional seating/crimping die, then immediately put a heavy-duty crimp on them with a Lee Crimp die. I did the initial crimp before the heavy-duty crimp because some of the charges were slightly compressed. Incidentally, while Hodgdon has warned in the past that Lil’Gun should not be compressed, in the 2009 Hodgdon reloading manual Hodgdon published a compressed Lil’Gun load for the .38 Super. I loaded all cartridges to just under 1.26".

As a baseline, I fired two strings of high-power Accurate #9 loads on the same day as the Lil'Gun loads. All strings were fired in the same pistol, my Colt Delta Elite Gold Cup. I used a 24 pound Wolf recoil spring, coupled with the original recoil spring plug, which incorporates a smaller, secondary spring. My Delta Elite does not have a fully-supported chamber.


Accurate #9, 15 grains
_ 1)_1331.0_ -32.6 f
_ 2)_1366.0_ 2.4
_ 3)_1370.0_ 6.4
_ 4)_1373.0_ 9.4
_ 5)_1365.0_ 1.4
_ 6)_1354.0_ -9.6
_ 7)_1360.0_ -3.6
_ 8)_1368.0_ 4.4
_ 9)_1370.0_ 6.4
_ 10)_1379.0_ 15.4

__ High:_1379.0
__ Low:_1331.0
__ E.S.:_ 48.0
__ Ave.:_1363.6
__ S.D.:_ 13.3
__ 95%:_ ±10.0


Accurate #9, 15.5 grains
_ 1)_1393.0_ -7.9
_ 2)_1417.0_ 16.1
_ 3)_1398.0_ -2.9
_ 4)_1395.0_ -5.9
_ 5)_1405.0_ 4.1
_ 6)_1410.0_ 9.1
_ 7)_1399.0_ -1.9
_ 8)_1413.0_ 12.1
_ 9)_1396.0_ -4.9
_ 10)_1383.0_ -17.9

__ High:_1417.0
__ Low:_1383.0
__ E.S.:_ 34.0
__ Ave.:_1400.9
__ S.D.:_ 10.3
__ 95%:_ ±7.8

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 15 grains
_ 1)_1219.0_ -19.8
_ 2)_1217.0_ -21.8
_ 3)_1260.0_ 21.2
_ 4)_1256.0_ 17.2
_ 5)_1265.0_ 26.2
_ 6)_1247.0_ 8.2
_ 7)_1242.0_ 3.2
_ 8)_1224.0_ -14.8
_ 9)_1233.0_ -5.8
_ 10)_1225.0_ -13.8

__ High:_1265.0
__ Low:_1217.0
__ E.S.:_ 48.0
__ Ave.:_1238.8
__ S.D.:_ 17.7
__ 95%:_ ±13.4

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 15.5 grains
_ 1)_1250.0_ -5.3
_ 2)_1254.0_ -1.3
_ 3)_1267.0_ 11.7
_ 4)_1227.0_ -28.3
_ 5)_1286.0_ 30.7
_ 6)_1272.0_ 16.7
_ 7)_1266.0_ 10.7
_ 8)_1216.0_ -39.3
_ 9)_1238.0_ -17.3
_ 10)_1277.0_ 21.7

__ High:_1286.0
__ Low:_1216.0
__ E.S.:_ 70.0
__ Ave.:_1255.3
__ S.D.:_ 22.7
__ 95%:_ ±17.1

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 16 grains
_ 1)_1282.0_ -4.5
_ 2)_1314.0_ 27.5
_ 3)_1282.0_ -4.5
_ 4)_1285.0_ -1.5
_ 5)_1304.0_ 17.5
_ 6)_1298.0_ 11.5
_ 7)_1253.0_ -33.5
_ 8)_1268.0_ -18.5
_ 9)_1279.0_ -7.5
_ 10)_1300.0_ 13.5

__ High:_1314.0
__ Low:_1253.0
__ E.S.:_ 61.0
__ Ave.:_1286.5
__ S.D.:_ 18.1
__ 95%:_ ±13.7

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 16.5 grains
_ 1)_1246.0_ -47.7
_ 2)_1323.0_ 29.3
_ 3)_1286.0_ -7.7
_ 4)_1310.0_ 16.3
_ 5)_1320.0_ 26.3
_ 6)_1297.0_ 3.3
_ 7)_1286.0_ -7.7
_ 8)_1282.0_ -11.7
_ 9)_1273.0_ -20.7
_ 10)_1314.0_ 20.3

__ High:_1323.0
__ Low:_1246.0
__ E.S.:_ 77.0
__ Ave.:_1293.7
__ S.D.:_ 24.0
__ 95%:_ ±18.1


These results are quite promising. The fired brass and primers looked very healthy. As noted earlier, I fired these in a pistol without a fully-supported chamber. While I often see “Glocksmiles” (even though it is a Colt) when shooting high-power 800-X loads, there were none to be found from the Lil’Gun loads. An average of 1293 is nothing to write home about, particularly considering the 1400 fps average in the 15.5 grain Accurate #9 load. But the fact is that Lil’Gun works in the 10mm! I don’t have time right now, but I am interested in moving up .5 grain to 1 grain.

I hope that this information is valuable.

Bringsteen, that's pertty good numbers from the Colt Delta Elite. I may have to give some of those a try, working up of course.
Thanks!

Good report Bringsteen! Haven't tried Lil'Gun.
Nice to know there is one more powder I can use in the 10.

Let us know how it goes. If the velocities can safely be pushed higher, then Lil'Gun may be the ultimate powder for someone with a 10mm and .44mag, or a 10mm and .357mag.

I am convinced that some of the powders in existence would be great for the 10mm, but the companies just have not taken the time to to the testing. I guess they haven't realized that the 10mm is hot again.

I agree.
Makes me wonder what other powders might work in the 10 or as a powder for 357. 44 &10 as you suggest.
As of now, I use AA#9 for full power loads in all 3 of these calibers.
I usually get best results with the mid to heavy range bullet weights in all 3 of the calibers.

I am sure that they're out there. My goal is to find a powder that will replace IMR 800-X. It is too hard to work with and the pressures can be dangerously spiky.

How was flash and concussion? Does it seem like you are getting a pretty full burn?

Iron Addict

I fired the strings on a clear, bright day, so I can't speak to the flash. The concussion seemed a bit less than my full-power #9 loads. I didn't notice any unburned particles of powder. But remember, I was using magnum primers and a very heavy crimp.

I am hopeful that as I work my way up, that I will find Lil'Gun to be an outstanding powder for high-powered 10mm loads.

From the velocities in the other calibers and my work with it in .357 magnum, I think it will be a great choice. I am going to try some loads with the 200 grain XTp's in the next couple of weeks.

Iron Addict

Outstanding. Be sure to post your results. If you don't have a Lee Crimp die, you may want to invest in one. They are about $15 and make it much easier to put a tight crimp on the 10mm.

Have any of you guys seen the internet rumors about throat erosion in revolvers? I use lil'gun in my Freedom Arms 97 45 and have had great results from it. I've loaded it for my 41 mags as well, but I've always wondered if there is any "official" word on the throat erosion.

New Data--Serious Velocities

The new data are interesting and a little confusing. Once again, I used 180 grain Hornady XTP's, new brass, handloaded each charge, and put a heavy crimp on the cases. As you can see, the 17 grain charges were slightly faster than the 17.5 grain charges.


Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 17.0 grains
_ 1)_1409.0_ 13.3
_ 2)_1402.0_ 6.3
_ 3)_1434.0_ 38.3
_ 4)_1371.0_ -24.7
_ 5)_1408.0_ 12.3
_ 6)_1397.0_ 1.3
_ 7)_1419.0_ 23.3
_ 8)_1373.0_ -22.7
_ 9)_1378.0_ -17.7
_ 10)_1366.0_ -29.7

__ High:_1434.0
__ Low:_1366.0
__ E.S.:_ 68.0
__ Ave.:_1395.7
__ S.D.:_ 22.9
__ 95%:_ ±17.3

Hodgdon Lil’Gun, 17.5 grains
_ 1)_1351.0_ -37.8
_ 2)_1399.0_ 10.2
_ 3)_1428.0_ 39.2
_ 4)_1414.0_ 25.2
_ 5)_1392.0_ 3.2
_ 6)_1337.0_ -51.8
_ 7)_1383.0_ -5.8
_ 8)_1381.0_ -7.8
_ 9)_1414.0_ 25.2
_ 10)_1390.0_ 0.2

__ High:_1428.0
__ Low:_1337.0
__ E.S.:_ 91.0
__ Ave.:_1388.8
__ S.D.:_ 29.8
__ 95%:_ ±24.3


What is frustrating is that the highest average velocity (1395.7) is actually lower than the highest average velocity using Accurate #9 (1400.9). But the maximum velocity with the Lil'Gun loads was higher (1434) than the #9 loads (1417). I will probably experiment with using a slightly lighter crimp and dropping down by a few tenths of a grain. It may be that compressing Lil'Gun in the 10mm doesn't do any good. Compression loads work for some powder/cartridge combinations, and not for others. I will also try to load them just a little bit longer, but the need for reliability dictates that I only stretch them by a few thousands of an inch, so it may not make any difference.

It is amazing how the data fluctuates with respect to velocities and finding the precise load with the least amount of variation and high accuracy is a challenge.

How was the brass and primers from the test?

The data does look promising for the use of Lil'Gun, good report as usual.
Thanks

The brass looked good. There were no "Glocksmiles." The primers were somewhat flattened, but nowhere near as bad as some of the IMR 800-X loads I have worked with.

Here are some more data for Hodgdon Lil'Gun in the 10mm. For this set of tests, my protocol was essentially the same: new Starline brass, CCI 350 magnum primers, hand weigh each charge, et cetera. I tested some slightly different powder charges and used both standard and heavy crimps. I also fired a string through my Smith & Wesson 610. Some of the strings do not include 10 shots because I got some sunlight-related error readings.

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Standard Crimp
1) 1427.0
2) 1371.0
3) 1345.0
4) 1348.0
5) 1360.0
6) 1358.0
7) 1347.0
8) 1369.0

High: 1427.0
Low: 1345.0
E.S.: 82.0
Ave.: 1365.6
S.D.: 26.7
95%: ±23.9

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Heavy Crimp
1) 1355.0
2) 1366.0
3) 1325.0
4) 1320.0
5) 1355.0
6) 1347.0
7) 1361.0
8) 1348.0
9) 1341.0
10) 1308.0

High: 1366.0
Low: 1308.0
E.S.: 58.0
Ave.: 1342.6
S.D.: 19.0
95%: ±14.3

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 16.8 grains, Standard Crimp
1) 1397.0
2) 1362.0
3) 1357.0
4) 1364.0
5) 1383.0
6) 1341.0
7) 1351.0
8) 1342.0

High: 1397.0
Low: 1341.0
E.S.: 56.0
Ave.: 1362.13
S.D.: 19.48

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 16.8 grains, Heavy Crimp
1) 1358.0
2) 1314.0
3) 1350.0
4) 1327.0
5) 1320.0
6) 1333.0
7) 1315.0
8) 1366.0
9) 1316.0
10) 1323.0

High: 1366.0
Low: 1314.0
E.S.: 52.0
Ave.: 1332.2
S.D.: 19.1
95%: ±14.4

Hodgdon Lil'Gun, 17 grains, Heavy Crimp, Smith & Wesson 610
1) 1448.0
2) 1432.0
3) 1518.0
4) 1418.0
5) 1363.0
6) 1421.0

High: 1518.0
Low: 1363.0
E.S.: 155.0
Ave.: 1433.33
S.D.: 50.44


Ultimately, I am disappointed with Lil'Gun in the 10mm. Of course, I never expected world-shattering velocities. But I was hopeful that I would see very good velocities with good shot-to-shot velocity consistency. Unfortunately, the consistency is terrible. Lil'Gun is the superstar in the .357 Magnum and is great in many magnum cartridges. It just doesn't look like the right propellant for the 10mm. It may be possible to get great velocities and consistency in the Smith & Wesson 610 by loading the cartridges longer than 1.260". But in the automatics, you usually can't do that and expect reliability.

If someone has success with Lil'Gun in the 10mm, or even an interesting theory about what to try, please post it.

Bringsteen, Thanks for the new post of data! That's a lot of powder in those cases. It seems that there are others that will yield simular results with less powder by weight or cost. But it is people like you who push the loads to observe the limits in real pistols.

Good work!