For the first time in three years of shooting the 10mm and DT ammo, I decided to chronograph some loads to record the difference between the factory 4.6" barrel and a Lone Wolf 5.15" barrel. All I can say is that I'm greatly disappointed in that the velocity claims don't come anywhere near what I experienced this morning. Am I the only one to have had this happen? Here are some numbers for you from an average of 10 shots per load.

1. DT 155gr. Bonded Defense website says 1475fps from stock barrel. My average 1298fps
2. DT 155 gr. JHP website says 1475fps from stock barrel. My average 1378fps

3. DT 155gr. Bonded Defense Lone Wolf 5.15" barrel. My average 1360fps
4. DT 155gr. JHP Lone Wolf 5.15" barrel. My average 1432fps

5. DT 165gr Bonded Defense website says 1400fps from stock barrel. Lone Wolf 5.15" barrel. My average 1351fps

6. DT 180gr Bonded Defense website says 1300fps from stock barrel. My average 1207fps
7. DT 180gr Bonded Defense Lone Wolf 5.15" barrel. My average 1270fps

The increase in barrel length is good for about 60fps and it still doesn't come anywhere close on the 155gr Bonded Defense. I also tested a .45 with DT's loads and had similar results, but yet a load from Corbon was dead on with its advertised numbers. Anyone else experience this?

And your sure it's not your chrony? Also consider elevation and temp, but I don't think DT is in Denver.

AKMAN

That sucks! Have you contacted DT yet? I would. McNett uses stock G20's, etc. for much of his data.
Sure there are variables between geographic locations and chronographs, but the velocities should be within 50 fps on average, all things being equal.

IIRC, someone else had a similar problem a couple years ago or so.

I know its not the chrony, Corbon loads were spot on, as was M14 loads I was experimenting with. For what's worth, there is no contacting DT. I have been calling and leaving messages and sending emails for months. Placed an order for 1000rds of 155gr Bonded Defense 5 weeks ago and the only order status I can see is pending. Don't even see the Bonded Defense on the website anymore. I think its time to look elsewhere for ammo.

I had a similar experience. First, I tried DT 165 gr Gold Dot load in my 610. The velocity claims were right on but locked up the cylinder tight due to the brass swell. Then I bought the Golden Sabre load which is advertised at 1425 fps. They came in at 1324 average of 10 shots. They functioned perfectly so I'm not too worried about it too much. That's still a solid round. I bought another box and will probably get some more in the future.

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Hornady-X...nce-t60995.html

This is discussed in the thread above in the factory ammo section. Same problem which is disappointingly short velocity performance from DoubleTap ammo. Haven't run any tests myself yet so I can't comment other than to say it's distressing.

DoubleTap is in Cedar City, UT at about 6,000 feet elevation so if you're at sea level you'll get a lower velocity. Temp and humidity also play a role.

If you get any response from DT let us know.

10Freak I really wanted to say thank you for the report and that I'm really disappointed in Double Tap for not responding to the claim. I have been a loyal customer as many others have been and I really would like a response from Double Tap since we the customers are relying on Double Tap for good quality ammo. Double Tap used to be the one company that was like a friend to the customers when they first started out. Mike M from Double Tap would answer any questions that the customers asked and would look into any problems the customer had with his ammo. It seems that the Customers made Double Tap the company it is today by promoting there ammo when ever they could. Today it seems and I hope I'm wrong that Double Tap is forgetting what made it famous and that was producing quality 10mm ammo and letting the customers know Double Tap was for its customers who made Double Tap what it is today

There was a post here a couple weeks ago in which someone tested some DT ammo (I think a 200g) from a 6" Glock barrel and didn't even get the advertised velocity from that.

I have some of the 180g FMJ Match & 180g Bonded HP and just got some 200g FMJ & 200g Bonded HP (which by the way appears to have Montana Gold bullets rather than the Hornady XTPs I was expecting). If I can find a hole in the schedule this week and an available bay at the range, I'm going to try and chorno all these from a stock G20 and a G20T with a 5.3" barrel. Will report as soon as I get all this to come together.

Dave

I'm looking forward to hearing your report on that Dave T.

Thanks.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of Doubletap, I went to order some tonight and it looks like they've raised their prices yet again. 200 round variety pack is up to $152 from $147 and most of the other stuff is up another $1 per 50. That's it for me and doubletap. I'm done. I have what I need and I will roll my own from now on.

This post has been edited by BusDrvr: October 18th 2009 3:51 AM

6k alt is no joke on the velocity. Still, poor PR is suicide for a business.

Hopefully this crap will be resolved. Full power 10mm simply doesn't need to be relegated to the reloaders bench.

Should have been, anyways. Nothing so satisfying as a well developed hand load.

wow. I think I might be reloading all my 10mm now... I just had a DUD from DT the other day too

I fully understand the reloading shortages and the current economic state the country is in. I can accept increases in price, it's part of the equation that we are forever bound by. But what I will never accept is false advertising or a company that has unhappy customers and cannot take the time to address their concerns. To date I have not heard a peep from DT with the exception that my pending order of 1000rds was removed from my account as I requested in an email, the same email I stressed concern over the velocity. I am sorry to say that other companies will earn my business and in the future I will reload my own. I am currently working with a company on several loads and will share info with you guys when I have it.

I ran some Double Tap over the chrony this is what I got for vel. 180 xtps 1284 fps, 165 golden sabers 1370 fps, 155 bonded [gold dots] 1408 fps and the 135 were at 1575 fps. It was 68 degrees and the elevation is 2100 ft. All loads were shot out of my 5 inch Dan Wesson PM-7.

Given the difference in elevation and temp that sounds pretty close to advertised.

After reading all the comments and waiting for Double Tap (Mike M) to hopefully respond to the Quality issues I don't think that this is really a issue for DT. People are still buying the ammo thinking that there is no other full power 10mm distributor around but there are and I think one of them to look at is Reed's Ammunition & Research and they are a quality full power 10mm ammo distributor. As I stated in my comment on 10/17 Double Tap is forgetting what made it the number 1 full power 10mm ammo distributor and that was the customers who would constantly buy and promote DT ammo on every forum they visited and I was one of them. When you go back and check on some of the issues Double Tap has been having with its ammo it seems Velocity is something that is nothing new.

Reed's Ammunition & Research has some full power 10mm ammo at a good price and people are starting to notice that there 10mm ammo is some of the best in quality and they also listen to what the customer has to say about there ammo. Reed's Ammunition & Research seems to take care of any issues that they may have very quickly and they also like to hear what there customers are saying about there product.

If Double Tap feels that this velocity issue is nothing they really care to fix then like many others I'm going to start reloading more and look at other 10mm ammo companies like Reed's Ammunition & Research.

This thread distresses me. I had expected much more from DT.

MCNETT hasn't been to this forum since last December. I hope that's not a sign there's an abandonment of the userbase afoot.

I tested 2 loads from 2 boxes I had stashed in which I had bought, IIRC, a year or two ago.


Kimber STII 10mm w. 5” bbl. With a 22# Wolff spring set.
Elevation 4253 feet, Temp 78 degrees.
Chrony F1 with screens at 13 feet.
Time was 1:15
No wind/clouds.

Lot# for 155 Gold Dot-000964
MV for the 155 grain was 1401 fps. The ES was an amazingly low 35 fps.
74 fps. shy of advertised 1475 fps. in a 4.6” bbl.

Lot# for 200 grain Beartooth WFNGC-000932
MV for the 200 (HardCast) was 1190 fps. also with a very low ES of only 30 fps.
110 fps. shy of the 1300 fps advertised velocity in a 4.6” bbl.

Accuracy and efficiency was top notch.
At 25M, groups were 2” or less from the Kimbers fully ramped/supported barrel off a rest.
Compared to the other hand loads I tested today, they felt very much in the full power load range.

Ejection rates averaged 16’-21’.

You know, I bought a box of DT 230 grain .45 ACP Gold Dot HPs, factory rated for "1014 fps." What bothers me here is not so much that the claims weren't as advertised, since I've been a little suspicous of it, but that no independent third party tests were not done early on to verify results!!! We just accept factory data as gospel. And until someone with a chrono, or someone with some gelatin and callipers actually does some tesing, factories can make what ever claims that they wish to sell their goods. Unfortunately, I don't have the resources on a Security Officer's pay to buy chronographs and ballistic gelatin and other expensive gear that you rich guys can afford. But why didn't somebody check them out for crying out loud!!!! In the past, I've often scoured the internet for independent gelatin tests for DT, particularly for the .45 230 grain Gold Dots, and I was amazed that with those claims that NO ONE has done their own gelatin tests!

Now we have an issue of trust, which bothers me. But perhaps DT isn't all that bad, and I still do have some valid questions:

1.) Is the overal quality and reliability of Double Tap's ammo in question, or is it just the velocity?

2.) If the velocity results are off, then what about the gelatin results (please, please somebody do some tests). If I'm going to carry the ammo in my duty weapon, I want to make sure that it will perform (i.e. expand and penetrate), regardless of how fast it is travelling.

3.) If the velocity results of DT are therefore on par with other manufacturers, then one naturally must beg the question... which is better for defense? Which is more accurate? Which has better barrier penetration, gelatin and clothed gelatin penetration? Which retains it's core weight better? Which expands better? I would be curious to see how DTs stand up to Federal HSTs???

4.) Does anyone have any tests on DT .45 ACP 230 grain Gold Dots? I'm interested in both chrono, but mainly gelatin and barrier penetration tests, as well as expansion tests?

A quick reply to a couple questions. It is mostly velocity claims.
But some have had light strikes in Glocks. They are not the strongest striker system anyway, but plenty adequate.
So in Glocks, never oil the firing pin channel, depressor plunger, breech face or extractor claw.
Crap builds up and causes light strikes or no strikes in some cases.

Glocks polygonal rifling (according to Glock IIRC) adds a bit more velocity.
I did not test my 2 above listed DT loads in my stock barrel. Who knows, the velocity may be a bit higher.
But others who have tested DT in stock Glock barrels still say the velocities are lower.