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Catholic Question, Sarge especially, but anyone else can answer too :)
post November 7th 2009 4:16 PM
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I read what you were saying about Catholicism and the ritualistic nature of it, etc. It makes sense that most people don't understand their service and that even their own teaching on doesn't explain it very well (Most people walk away with "you are saved when baptized as a baby" and "coming to mass forgives me sins" and many other incorrect beliefs. I'll take your word that those are wrong even in the view of true Catholicism, simply because I understand that people on a whole misunderstand things, hence why I'm asking this question.

Do you believe that sins can only be confessed to a priest, or do you believe that sins can be confessed directly to God through Jesus' name?

The reason I ask is that there is a perception that if you don't get to a priest and confess everything, you are not forgiven for those sins until you get to a priest and confess them. I understand the true nature of confession (yes, I believe this is incorrect biblically) and in many ways by confessing them you are being changed internally by doing so. When you throw them out there and admit it, it changes something inside you and that is the main reason that God told us to do so.

A side note about the nature of Salvatino. I'll state this and you tell me if you agree.

When you accept Salvation through Christ's death on the cross, I believe that all the sin past, present and future has been forgiven. So all past sins, all sins you are presently committing and all future sins. As such, confession isn't asking for Christ to cover those sins (He already has on the cross), but rather acknowledging that you've committed those sins before God and asking for strength to avoid those sins in the future. I think that this is the most Biblically accurate view of the nature of sin and Salvation. In evangelical church culture, many people have the mindset that until you confess your sins to God, you are not forgiven for them. I have a hard time with that idea, because if Jesus DID die for all the sin of the world past present and future, then this idea is greatly flawed and you are calling his sacrifice insufficient.

So what does everyone else think on this topic? Lutherans can feel free to join in too smile.gif I'm an equal opportunity offender animlol.gif j/k

This post has been edited by dead2sin: November 7th 2009 4:16 PM
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post November 7th 2009 4:44 PM
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I think whatever you buy into, is what you believe. If your religion tells you that in order to get to heaven you need to confess to a dolphin, then that is what you believe, and you can't understand how anyone else can think differently.

The point is it's not perception- it's the doctrine of a particular religion. They all have their own set of beliefs and practices and none of them or more right or wrong than any other.


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post November 7th 2009 4:49 PM
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Therefore I tell my sorrows to the stones;
Who, though they cannot answer my distress,
Yet in some sort they are better than the tribunes,
For that they will not intercept my tale:
When I do weep, they humbly at my feet
Receive my tears and seem to weep with me;
And, were they but attired in grave weeds,
Rome could afford no tribune like to these.
A stone is soft as wax,--tribunes more hard than stones;
A stone is silent, and offendeth not,
And tribunes with their tongues doom men to death.


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post November 7th 2009 4:54 PM
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From:

QUOTE
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/.../Wiseman.asp#F3

Is Confession Based on the Bible?

Q: I cannot find anything in the Bible about Christians confessing to another human being, like a priest.

My understanding is that we are to confess our sins to Jesus and ask for his forgiveness, which he gives to those who are truly sorry.

Even though I was brought up Catholic, I haven’t gone to Confession in years because I do not believe in telling my sins to anyone, including a priest.

Why doesn’t the Catholic Church have open confession during weekly Masses?

A: The Sacrament of Penance has evolved over the years, always in harmony with its biblical roots.

After his Resurrection, Jesus told the apostles, “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained” (John 20:23).

The Letter of James says, “Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful” (5:16).

Confessing one’s sins to someone designated by the Church reaffirms our belief that God can act through created things and through people. That belief helps us understand Jesus’ Incarnation and the sacraments.

During his earthly life, Jesus was a visible sign, a sacrament, of God’s love. After Jesus’ Ascension, the Church continues that sign, although imperfectly this side of heaven. The Sacrament of Penance flows from Jesus’ Incarnation and his followers’ sense of communion with God and each other.

“Open confession” may sound good, but would it be the personal encounter which the present practice offers?

At a time when we see a tremendous flight from personal responsibility, do we want personal repentance to become “...and for whatever I may have done wrong”?

You may not intend that, but I suspect that’s where the open confession you describe would probably lead.

Last August, approximately two million young people attended World Youth Day in Rome. Many of them went to individual confession in the Circus Maximus. Would they have had a stronger sense of God’s love for them as individuals if a priest or bishop had given general absolution instead? Probably not.

Confession has been the occasion for many people to appreciate how much God loves them and how much they have resisted that love.

Most parishes schedule a Penance service during Lent, with opportunity for individual confession. Why not participate in one of them?


As a practicing Catholic, I take it upon myself to personally understand both the HOW and the WHY of how the Church does things. If you strip away all of the 'catholix r teh papist suxxor' rhetoric that's out there, there is actually very sound methods to what the Catholic church does.

Links and References to Other Pages:

http://www.americancatholic.or...er/Feb2001/Wiseman.asp#F3


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post November 7th 2009 5:05 PM
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And just for the record, there is an unforgivable sin:

QUOTE
"Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" - because they said, "He has an unclean spirit." (Mark 3:28-30)
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post November 7th 2009 5:07 PM
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QUOTE (KellyTTE @ November 7th 2009 12:05 PM) *
And just for the record, there is an unforgivable sin:

However, that only applies if you believe in that particular religion.
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post November 7th 2009 5:09 PM
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I was born and raised Catholic. I have studied the reasoning behind the Catholic doctrines and found some so offensive I left Catholicism for good. I would be happy to discuss in detail via PM, but I don't want to start a war in open forum. It is a very contentious issue.


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post November 7th 2009 5:32 PM
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QUOTE (oak1971 @ November 7th 2009 12:09 PM) *
I was born and raised Catholic. I have studied the reasoning behind the Catholic doctrines and found some so offensive I left Catholicism for good. I would be happy to discuss in detail via PM, but I don't want to start a war in open forum. It is a very contentious issue.


Its unfortunate that it is a contentious issue. Open discussion of such topics without personal attacks or taking things personally (both are important) can lead to some GREAT understanding between all the parties involved. I find that most things people think about another group are based upon hearsay instead of actual fact regarding that group.

G - I understand your position, but I politely disagree. This thought regarding the issue didn't exist previous to the enlightenment and is very much a humanistic way of thinking about it (not saying humanistic is negative per se, but it is opposed to religion in many ways...which I am sure you are aware of smile.gif).
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post November 7th 2009 5:34 PM
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post November 7th 2009 5:39 PM
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QUOTE (KellyTTE @ November 7th 2009 12:05 PM) *
And just for the record, there is an unforgivable sin:


No disagreement here on that verse. Its pretty clear to me.

I agree that open confession is a bad idea because people are human and would possibly use that knowledge against each other (gossip, social gain, etc).

Confession can be done to God directly and also through fellow Christians that you trust. I think the main point of that verse is that you confess your sins to each other so that they can actively help you with that particular struggle. Unless a Priest is actively discipling you and helping you through that struggle, I don't really think that the purpose of that verse is fulfilled. Not to say its a BAD practice, but it would be following the desire of that verse more closely if the priest would follow up with that individual and give them encouragement and help getting through the struggle(almost like counseling).

All the depictions of confession to a Priest I see is "These are my sins" and then the priest says "You are forgiven for those sins" and they go back to doing whatever they want. Perhaps movies and media have ruined the true value behind Catholicism...I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
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post November 7th 2009 5:43 PM
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What do I think?

None of us can speak for God and the guy who thinks I can sin all I want to and confess on the weekend is just as wrong as the guy who thinks all I need is a little water sprinkled on me and can sin all I want to.

The key isn't in the Golden Ticket but who you are otherwise Jesus spent one hell of a lot of wasted time telling people how to think and live.

Tj
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post November 7th 2009 5:44 PM
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QUOTE (dead2sin @ November 7th 2009 10:39 AM) *
All the depictions of confession to a Priest I see is "These are my sins" and then the priest says "You are forgiven for those sins" and they go back to doing whatever they want. Perhaps movies and media have ruined the true value behind Catholicism...I wouldn't be surprised if it did.


Well thats part of the problem (how its being depicted).

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/confession.php

QUOTE
Before Confession

Be truly sorry for your sins. The essential act of Penance, on the part of the penitent, is contrition, a clear and decisive rejection of the sin committed, together with a resolution not to commit it again, out of the love one has for God and which is reborn with repentance. The resolution to avoid committing these sins in the future (amendment) is a sure sign that your sorrow is genuine and authentic. This does not mean that a promise never to fall again into sin is necessary. A resolution to try to avoid the near occasions of sin suffices for true repentance. God's grace in cooperation with the intention to rectify your life will give you the strength to resist and overcome temptation in the future.


If there isn't a heartfelt resolution to avoid the sin in the future, the confession isn't 'valid' (for lack of a better term) and its as if the confession hadn't happened. If you're doing what TJ says, going out, getting dumb, then going to confession, then the next weekend, rinse and repeating, then no, you're not forgiven, because you're not trying to avoid repeating the sin.

This post has been edited by KellyTTE: November 7th 2009 5:48 PM
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post November 7th 2009 5:47 PM
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QUOTE (dead2sin @ November 7th 2009 12:32 PM) *
G - I understand your position, but I politely disagree. This thought regarding the issue didn't exist previous to the enlightenment and is very much a humanistic way of thinking about it (not saying humanistic is negative per se, but it is opposed to religion in many ways...which I am sure you are aware of smile.gif ).


Not really. I don't know of that particular doctrine in Shinto, or Buddhism, or Hinduism. Sometimes people get caught up in the idea that Christianity or Judaism or even Islam are the only religions. There are lots of them, and each religion is as valid as the next, if that is what a person believes.
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post November 7th 2009 6:10 PM
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dude, don't freaking cause problems.
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post November 7th 2009 6:28 PM
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QUOTE (satchmodog @ November 7th 2009 11:10 AM) *
dude, don't freaking cause problems.


What he said. The OP asked a very specific question regarding Catholic doctrine. If you're not a practicing Catholic, or you're Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, whatever, just keep on trucking. Religious threads have enough contention without low-grade trollinium being added..
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post November 7th 2009 6:36 PM
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QUOTE (KellyTTE @ November 7th 2009 12:28 PM) *
What he said. The OP asked a very specific question regarding Catholic doctrine. If you're not a practicing Catholic, or you're Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, whatever, just keep on trucking. Religious threads have enough contention without low-grade trollinium being added..

I was raised Catholic and even though I left the church in college(catholic college at that) I think it's wrong to gop trolling and crap on another christians faith. We are all brothers in Christ here(at least the Christians here), let's keep it that way. God doesn't give a shat, as long as you believe and take him into your life
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post November 7th 2009 7:29 PM
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QUOTE (dead2sin @ November 7th 2009 11:16 AM) *
Do you believe that sins can only be confessed to a priest, or do you believe that sins can be confessed directly to God through Jesus' name?


Sins are forgiven by God, no one else. However, we must first be willing to forgive as Jesus tells us. The reason for going to a priest is simple. Admitting your sins in private is easy, admitting it to another person is a MUSH harder and humbling experience. Plus with a priest you get the added benefit of instruction on how not to repeat that sin again.

QUOTE
The reason I ask is that there is a perception that if you don't get to a priest and confess everything, you are not forgiven for those sins until you get to a priest and confess them.


Priests are just a representative of Jesus, but not Jesus. You are basically forgiven the second you ask God for forgiven in your own mind, going to confession is the result of that personal conclusion but not always necessity.

If a Catholic is dying alone in a forrest and asks God for forgiveness, God will forgive.


QUOTE
When you accept Salvation through Christ's death on the cross, I believe that all the sin past, present and future has been forgiven.


That is correct.

QUOTE
So all past sins, all sins you are presently committing and all future sins. As such, confession isn't asking for Christ to cover those sins (He already has on the cross), but rather acknowledging that you've committed those sins before God and asking for strength to avoid those sins in the future. I think that this is the most Biblically accurate view of the nature of sin and Salvation.


Thats the way I understand it.


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Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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post November 7th 2009 7:45 PM
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QUOTE (satchmodog @ November 7th 2009 10:10 AM) *
dude, don't freaking cause problems.

Ease up.

QUOTE (KellyTTE @ November 7th 2009 10:28 AM) *
What he said. The OP asked a very specific question regarding Catholic doctrine. If you're not a practicing Catholic, or you're Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, whatever, just keep on trucking. Religious threads have enough contention without low-grade trollinium being added..


This is a discussion. There is no thread on this forum that will be limited to people of a particular race, color, nationality, or religion. All are free to comment, and if others disagree, then they are also free to do so as long as the rules of the forum are followed. We will not have members dictating who can or cannot speak on issues. If an issue is that sensitive, then the topic will be closed. We'll either allow all to comment, or none.

This post has been edited by Pepper: November 7th 2009 11:00 PM
Reason for edit: Edited to make it red.


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post November 7th 2009 7:46 PM
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QUOTE (Pepper @ November 7th 2009 2:45 PM) *
This is a discussion. There is no thread on this forum that will be limited to people of a particular race, color, nationality, or religion. All are free to comment,


Please tell me you dont allow the Irish in here!
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post November 7th 2009 8:26 PM
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QUOTE (Pepper @ November 7th 2009 1:45 PM) *
Ease up.



This is a discussion. There is no thread on this forum that will be limited to people of a particular race, color, nationality, or religion. All are free to comment, and if others disagree, then they are also free to do so as long as the rules of the forum are followed. We will not have members dictating who can or cannot speak on issues. If an issue is that sensitive, then the topic will be closed. We'll either allow all to comment, or none.



Since you did not use red in the post you are speaking as a member and not staff.

Seems like you are trying to protect somebody here.....



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