My RRA AR15 is the first rifle I have ever owned, and before I got it, I never had much time shooting rifles. I have shot pistols and shotguns all my life and consider myself to be a fairly good shot with either.

But with the rifle, I am really struggling with my shooting and I don't know why, other than that I am clearly not setting up correctly. My RRA has a 16" barrel, and I am using an Eotech 512. This morning, I was shooting Prvi Partisan 55 gr FMJ-BT on the 50 yard range. On the bench rest, I have everything really dialed in nicely, and I am able to shoot some nice tight groups.

My problem is when I shoot from the standing position. I am getting all over the paper, but generally, my shots are hitting low, by about 4" to 6" and to call what I am shooting 'groups' would be an exaggeration. When viewing the target through the Eotech, I am seeing that I am having a lot of difficulty keeping the dot steady and centered on target.

I don't really know what I'm doing right or wrong, and I would appreciate if someone could explain to me the basics - stance, breathing trigger squeeze - all of it. Or point me at some online resources. As much detail as possible would be great.

Thanks for your help.

I don't really know what I'm doing right or wrong, and I would appreciate if someone could explain to me the basics - stance, breathing trigger squeeze - all of it. Or point me at some online resources. As much detail as possible would be great.

Thanks for your help.
[/quote]

I have heard that some people will shoot while they are breathing, just making sure that as they breathe the gun rised and falls predictably. Im a hold my breath kind of guy when its time for the shot. it Just takes practice. been shootin prairie dogs since i was 9. Just dont wait to long holding your breath. make sure you got the shot u want, hold your breath and try to squeeze off the shot in a couple of seconds or youll really be circling. It is different that a pistol in the sense that a pistol you pull on the trigger. The rifle you want to slowly sqeeze down on the trigger.

hope that helps some

FAAPOD, First welcome.

Going from bench to standing is like going from a Pinto to a a Viper. Bench is very stable with little or no muscle holding the gun and standing is not stable with much more involved in the shot. It would take several hours to sit and type everything that goes into breaking a good solid shot with a rifle but I am going to post some links to the US Army book that I more or less learned from coming up through the ranks and through JROTC.

Here is one that a failry easy to follow through the web.


If you can find a copy to download or check a local surplus store and get a hard copy. It goes through all of the basics of stance, breathing, trigger control, proper sight picture and sight allignment. Look in Chapter 4 section II. Take it slow if you are not used to shooting from standing it will be hard at first and you may struggle.

My guess is that right away you have a combination of breathing, jerking the trigger and not setting up the most solid stance you can if your groups are that spread out. You may also try bracing against a support beam if your range has one. My range has covered shooting tables and I can easily lean agains one of the 4x4 post that hold the roof up. Also pratice setting your cheek up on the stock the same way all the time reguardless of what your stance is. The Army tries to do this by teaching you to put the tip of your nose on the charging handle when you set up. This will be reguardless of stance. I make an effort on every shot to make sure that my nose is touching the charging handle or as close as I can get to it.

Thanks for the welcome and the link redbarron. I'm going to pour over this manual when I get back later this afternoon. What you're saying about the way the Army taught you to put your nose to the charging handle kind of surprised me. I would have thought that was a good way to get a nosebleed! I'm going to have to learn more about the 'cheek weld'. I had seen the term, but never really knew what it meant.

Cheek weld is simply where and how your cheek meets the stock. The more consistent you are with cheek weld, the more consistent your shot placement should be. A piece of tape on the stock where you place your cheek can help.


TS

The recoil on a 223/556 ar is very low. To give you an idea a standard rifle scope has about 3 inches of eye relief, the scope on my magnum muzzle loader has 5 inches, the ACOG wich was designed for the M-16/M/4 rilfe only has one inch of eye relief. Even firing rapidly you never even get close to getting "scope eye". Nose on the charging handle is no problem. If it if very cold outside and your nose is very cold it might feel almost had as bad as somebody thumping your ear lobe. By nose to the charging handle I also mean just bearly touch it. Do not put a bunch of pressure agains just enough so that you know it is there. This will create a very repeatable check weld on the AR rifle. I am not sure I would try it with the larger AR10 (308) but for the standard 223/556 it is very easy to do. After a while you do not even notice you are doing it and certainly do not notice the recoil on your nose.

This post has been edited by redbarron06: November 28th 2008 1:54 PM

do you understand shooting with a figure 8? are you balancing your stock on your hand or are you gripping it? shotgunning is so much different than rifle shooting. i am having a hard time typing due to some injuries. maybe someone else can explain this in more detail

redbarron - I got a chance to read through that manual that you linked to. Good stuff there, and a lot of detail that I need. Thanks a lot - I'll be practicing the stuff mentioned there and printing out this manual. I see that I should be doing a lot more practicing with the dry fire exercises.

satchmodog - No, that is the first time I have ever heard that - shooting with a figure 8. I was gripping the forend pretty tightly. Reading throught the manual posted by redbarron, I see now that this is an error.

What with the bipod, Scope, Foregrip, Sling, Clamped magazines, And weight of the rifle itself, I find shooting standing difficult because my arms get tired. Especially with body armor on, And even worse after running. I never shoot standing and expect to get good groups, When I shoot standing I expect to hit the target, And thats all I expect especially at longer ranges. If I want groups, Or want to hit a target way out there in the grass at 300+ meters, I go prone or kneeling. I guess it depends on what you expect from your stance, And at what ranges.

Pay attention to the groups you get, If its spreading from top to bottom, Its breathing. If its spread out from left to right, Its trigger control. Square yourself towards the target, And if you are right handed, Put your right foot just slightly forward so you get that lean into it. I let the weapon recoil where it wants to, Because I find if you have a death grip on the weapon you either shake or jerk it when fired. A good cheek weld is also very important, Crane your neck forward and touch the tip of your nose on the charging handle. Feels weird at first and might leave your neck sore, But you get used to it and becomes a habit. Practice!

Also, You mentioned using shotguns a lot. I don't use a shotgun often, So I'm not sure if its shouldered any differently, But my M16/AR's ride real high up on my shoulder, With the bottom corner of the butt pressed into the pocket of my shoulder, My ear almost touches the stock. Might look at how you shoulder the weapon and try adjusting to see what happens. You might be changing it from the bench to standing and not even notice.

This post has been edited by Watson: November 29th 2008 5:27 PM

Another graduate of US Army School of "Basic Rifle Marksmenship".

Try getting somebody to help you with all of the stances and doing the washer/dime drills. When you first start just try to get the shot off with out dropping the dime. As you get batter start aiming through your sigts and then breaking the shot. Doing this for 15 to 20 minutes (no more than 30) every other day will also condition the muscles for firing in the standing position. Try doing Prone (unsupported)and kneeling on M-W-F and Standing and sitting on T-T-S. Then go to the range on Sunday. Also take a couple of small targets so you can track your progress from week to week. You should get to the point where you can hit a man at 200 yds standing 20-25 times out of 30 with no optics. With optics (like an ACOG yoiu should be hitting 28 or higher out of 30. This is allot of fun if you have a man size steel target you can get at 30 yards.

Standing is very hard to master. An olympic airgunner is shooting 10 meters at a target the size of a pin head and in 4 poistion competition it alwasy comes down to the standing.

Depending on what version of the manual you are looking at I have gun and pasted the proceedure:

(8) Dime (Washer) Exercise. This dry-fire technique is used to teach or evaluate the skill
of trigger squeeze and is effective when conducted from an unsupported position. When
using the M16A1 rifle for this exercise, the soldier must cock the weapon, assume an
unsupported firing position, and aim at the target. An assistant places a dime (washer) on the
rifle’s barrel between the flash suppressor and front sight post assembly. The soldier then
tries to squeeze the trigger naturally without causing the dime (washer) to fall off. Several
repetitions of this exercise must be conducted to determine if the soldier has problems with
trigger squeeze. The purpose of the exercise is for the firer to dry-fire six of six consecutive
shots without causing the dime or washer to fall. (Repeat this exercise from the prone
unsupported firing position.)
(a) If the dime (washer) is allowed to touch the sight assembly or flash suppressor, it
may fall off due to the jolt of the hammer. Also, the strength of the hammer spring on some
rifles can make this a difficult exercise to perform.

There is a new version than the one I linked you to dated Aug of 08 but I am having trouble finding it for you without you haveing an AKO password.

This post has been edited by redbarron06: November 29th 2008 6:14 PM